any Organ music buffs here?

I have not heard the Hurford collection that I recommended but I have some of the original releases. They feature a terrific Rieger organ. Listen to the Mendelssohn sonata in D minor. It has bottom D at 32 pitch which represents a fundamental frequency of 19 Hz with subharmonics below this. Nothing I have heard comes close.

 

I have the Bach collection played by Hurford but heard it only once. It is quite a long time ago that I have heard lot of organ music. With all thode new CDs I didn't have time for it.

Low frequencies here are really no problem for me. Organ music here sounds very very close to what I hear in the churches here around. Tones heard the Passacaglia and the Toccata (dorisch) here...
Frequencies under 16 cannot be heard. 16 Hz gives a very unpleasant feeling.

 

Organ music

Bat, I don't find the Wikman CD from Hamburg that outstanding (acquired it because of your recommendation). Having heard his sympathic Kunst der Fuge, I am rather disappointed by the Hamburg CD. Rather square interpretations, and he doesn't even let the organ shine. For better recordings of the organ (and better interpretations) listen to the two CDs by Rainer Oster for Arte Nova (bargain price) containing music by Bach and Buxtehude. Or Wolfgang Zehrer's two Weckman CDs for Naxos.

As to Peter Hurford, he is always reliable and playing with great authority, and I think a recomendation of a CD by him is safe.

For baroque organ music fans the Arte Nova CDs by Mario Hosbach Martini constitutes more varied and inspiring collections.

 

But you are certainly an exception. Think of the usual music (and HiFi) enthusiast.

 

With all due respect, I think that is impossible. I know you have an exceptional system that sits in a large room.

However, to get the true sound of an organ (unless it is very small, but even if that is the case) at home your ears would just burst. In the rare cases where the organist sits with his head aligned with pipes, playing is a nightmarish experience.

That is because even if a system is perfect, you just cannot have an organ in a room, unless it does have neither mixtures nor a strong 16 foundation. My experience tells me that you can have, in a moderately big room (say 10x8x4) a more or less complete organ, of this kind:

Great:
Principal 8 (very soft)
Spitzflöte 8
Octav 4 (again soft)
Superoctave 2
Quint 1 1/3; or mixture III, soft and ending at 4, 3, 2
Regal 8

Manual II
Rohrflöte 8
Spitzflöte 4
Nasard 3
Open flute 2
Terz 1 3/5

Pedal
Gedeckt 16
Open flute 8
Open flute 4
Fagot 8, or 16 if rather soft
Pull downs


Now, with the big organ of St. Jakobi, for instance, the lowest open principal 32 is 1,5 meters wide; the Posaune 32 is extremely strong; the mixtures (the Positive's especially) are extremely penetrating.

Admitting one has a room about 15x8x6 you cannot really have that kind of sound. In such a room even a loud harpsichord will sound too loud after prolonged and close listening (the listener actually gets louder sound than the player does).

Therefore, the result is that you will have to lower the loudness of the sound. Because of the way our ears work, that will implicate a balance shift: the basses and high treble will be weaker. Of course, if you actually have an enormous room, about the size of St. Jakobi, with a perfect system, you will certainly have the illusion. I have had such an experience, and I was convinced that hi-fi could sound realistic. But it was at a concert hall, playing Stravinsky...

I don't mean to diminish your, by all accounts, perfect system: I only want to point out that what one gets at home is almost always a reduction of the real sound (with your system, I believe that piano, harpsichord, string quartets and small choruses would be realistic).

And, really, one cannot listen a 64 foot. Your assertion is correct, as far as I know: no hearing under 20 Hz (some persons do hear, though, even if I do not). Why bother with a 64, then? The fact is that one does have the sensation of extra bass. That is explained by the difference tones Helmholtz discovered: If you play (in perfect tuning) C G c e g c', you will listen to CC. This is because all the CC harmonics are there, and our ears and brain will reconstruct the sound from harmonics. Therefore, if you have a 32' and a 22' you will get the impression of a 64, even if you can definitely not recognize pitch; for that you will need the upper tones, which are audible and recognizable.

 

RdS,
when I listen to an organ in a church, I'm sitting at least 30 m away from the instrument. Normally with big organs in big churches you sit far more away. The energy there is far reduced than sitting a few meters away from the instrument. The emulation of the sound sitting 30-50 meters away from an organ in a big church can IMO be percepted at home as realistic, when listening to an Hifi at 2-3 meters distance. Of course the recording, the Hifi and the room acoustics have to satisfy certain requisites.
To tell the truth, I have the feeling that many people overestimate the energy (dB) percepted at the distance, when sitting in a church. Too often is the volume higher at home than it would be at live.
For the organist it is another thing: a few times I assisted the organist in changing pages during concerts. We were sitting much much closer to the pipes. I don't achieve that kind of experience at home.

I would be happy if you could list me some pieces, that according to you, cannot be reproduce authentically at home. Please indicate me when / where I have to be aware of the particular tone. I always find it interesting to improve my perception or to become more aware of things. That is also why I was very interested in meeting you. Not because of Hifi but exclusively because of music, especially organ and harpsichord.
I've got lots of "material" and it would have been just delightful to go through it with a specialist.
Lots of people believe I'm interested in Hifi: if I would put some percentiges on paper, I would say 95% of my interest is for music, 5% in Hifi. Hifi is there only because it is a medium to listen to music. Nothing else (for me).

best regards

titian

 

Pe-zulu, I am sorry to learn that you didn't like the Wikman CD. Perhaps you are right. There is certain squareness, but that is his style. First impression is not always right. Maybe you should give it another try, as should I. It was recorded by Bertil Alving who is a rather famous 'tonmeister'.
The Hurford 2CD should be given a big hand because these recordings have been sold out for a while. The Mendelssohn sonata was recorded in 1984, the tonmeister was Simon Eadon who did a marvellous job. I once had a subwoofer and when the 19 Hz part came (only 6 seconds maybe) I could feel the powerful cool breeze coming out... I now have very bad speakers but the Mendelssohn record sounds all right even with them.
I wonder if you are familiar with Birgitta Forsman's 1995 Bach record, a very nice recording, a modern Silbermann-inspired organ with easy-to-spot Werckmeister III tuning. Not many Werckmeister III organs out there? Forsman has a lively quick-reflex style of playing, unlike Wikman.

 

Bat,

Wikman got another (third) try to day, and my impression is similar. Square, pedestrian playing, and rather uninteresting programming with two spurious Bach works, two less important youthful works and stone-heavy versions of the Canzona and the Dorian. Never-the-less excellent caught by B Alving, who's recordings (Proprius, BIS) always are top standard.

I have never heard of Birgitta Forsman. Is the recording, you mention, available to day?
Suppose she is Finnish or Swedish, something I incidentally suppose you are too.

Regards,

 

Forsman is Finnish and her record is sort of available in Finland, I know a small shop near where I live, but I am not sure that the owner sells abroad. If you are interested, perhaps we could arrange something, or I can ask the owner.
I have a growing suspicion that you may be right about the Hamburg record.
On the other hand, Wikman's Die Kunst der Fuge, which I just got, seems to put me in an instant nirvana.

 

Thanks for your offer Bat, but I don't think I am specially interested in Forsmans CD at the moment. At least I have got a number of Bach organ music CDs I must listen to first.

And I agree fully about Wikmans outstanding Kunst der Fuge. Calm flow and intense concentration at the same time. Observe that he doesn't make use of the pedal at all, in order not to disturb the internal balance of the parts. In contrast to Wikman, Rübsam (Philips 1977) uses the pedal much, but always registers manuals and pedal at the same pitch (8`OR 16'), a fully acceptable compromise, whereas Walcha (like most others) in his otherwise fascinating interpretation uses pedal with 16' and manuals with 8' too much, making the pedal part relatively prominent. BTW these three interpretations are my top choices for organ versions of the work.

 

Dear Titian: You might be right. Nevertheless, having listened to several 'million dollar systems' in rather large rooms, I am not convinced.

But I know you are a music lover and not a HiFi freak.

 

The fact could be that you are right and my imagination is a little bit too strong.
I haven't heard to any 'million dollar systems' neither in small nor in bigger rooms.
But nevertheless I would be interested in knowing which compositions (organ works) I should hear to be aware of these "unpossibile reproductions of tones". I know the organist over here and he might play the pieces, so I hear how they sound live.
Then I go home and hear them there :chunder:
I wouldn't mind to kill my imagination.

regards

titian

 

You learnt to avoid anything I recommend... :guiness:

 

Certainly not. On the contrary you have recommended many fine recordings, which I have enjoyed very much. Holm Vogels trio sonatas and Jarretts French suites spring to my mind.

 

Because you mentioned the blind organist Holm Vogel, I have returned to his trio sonatas, the dullness I felt has disappeared... the 3 individual lines come so clearly out... Vogel has also recorded Clavierübung III.

 

Holm Vogel

Thank you. I see, that JPC lists the Clavierübung III recording. I shall get it with my next order.

 

I got it already. It's very good (perhaps you will elaborate)... The same fine two-manual Schuke organ again.
Btw, are you familiar with Nordstoga's Bach trio sonatas CD on Simax label?

 

Yes, when I get it. I haven't ordered it yet.
Don't know Nordstogas triosonatas, I suppose they were released very recently.

 

Nordstoga's CD was released in 1997. Extremely beautiful and the new 16-stop organ is a gem. The pedal has only 2 stops. Interesting registrations are given;for instance, the largo of the 2nd sonata is played with the following registrations: right hand: Vox candida 8', left hand: Bordun 8', pedal:Subbass 16'. Natural, rhytmical playing. I like especially the last two sonatas. It may be sold out.

 

What is a Vox candida? Some sort of regal or of Vox humana? How does it sound? Like a soft reed, or is it a flue?

Can you comment, please?