Arcs or Obs?

Tenson,

just wondering how many pairs of shahinian loudspeakers have you heard, and in how many different environments?

cheers
Matt
(who's heard 5 pairs in 4 environments, and has yet to hear anything he prefers)

 

Nomoretweaks,

I have Obs, and they're about 40cm from the rear wall, the left one is about 1m from the sidewall, the right one about 3m. They sound absolutely fantastic to me. I've also heard Arcs (but not at my place) and both have similar room filling abilities.

cheers
Matt

 

MattC,
am I right to suggest that non-parallel placement is not a problem with Obelisks? I am quite limited for maneuvre here and speakers will be placed like this:

--------w i n d o w -----------
----Ob-------------TV--------
------------------------------
-------------------------Ob--
-----------------------------d
f----------------------------d
f ----------------------------
f ----------------------
-----s-o--f-a---------
------------------------
------------------------
------------------------
-------window----------

My new room is irregular,
f - fireplace
d - door
Ob - Obelisk
(I've got wooden blinds on windows plus heavy curtains)

thanks

 

In my view, that depends on whether you subscribe to the view that omni-directional speakers are MORE interactive upon the room than a directly radiating speaker, or LESS.

Of course, it's not really a matter of opinion, but demonstrable fact.

I lack the technical knowledge to do a thorough explanation of room interaction and speaker choice, and would leave a topic like that to someone like Thorsten.

My personal experience has shown that the MORE directional a speaker is, the LESS it re-acts with the room.

For example, electrostatics seem to give a ray-gun-like beam of sound, right at you. Move to the side, and the sound falls away dramatically. This makes them less room dependant rather than more in my view. Whether you like them or not is another question entirely.

Again, personal experience has shown me that the omni's I have heard do very much benefit from a free-space arrangement - ceiling height also being an important factor.

As previously mentioned though - I am a very long way from expertise. Thorsten, 7v or other speaker makers who have read up on the topic would be better placed to give a view.

Apologies if you didn't want to know any of that.

 

Matt, I have only heard one pair. However that is not my point. My point was that the combination of an omni speaker with digital room correction, especially one like TacT where you have limited control over what it does, is unlikely to work well together. The Tact is trying to determine what is direct sound and what is reflected and adjust to correct for the reflected while the omni speaker is trying to excite as much room interaction as possible.

I would suggest that placement is not such an issue with them as you are unlikely to have much of a focused soundstage anyway, more like just an all encompassing lovely sound. Yes, I know there is a degree of imaging, but not as much as a directive speaker. As such, as long as you have control over the level each speaker plays at, at the listening position you should be alright. The TacT can level match the channels for you

 

thank you bottleneck,

my view is that ALL speakers interact with the room, and NO speaker can work properly without a room, and I think that speakers-room should be better seen as one system, rather than antagonists, because speaker-room interaction is not a bad thing per se. So the question for me is not LESS or MORE, but HOW WELL.

 

You are absolutely correct, TacT works well with reflected sound as long as phase shift is minimal. That's, BTW, why TacT recommends as close to the wall placement as possible. There is no way one can get a minimal phase shift with omnis.

with the kind of placement I am bound to now I can not create a pin-point imaging even with direct speakers and TacT, although the way the stage snaps into focus with TacT is quite impressive.

So the question for me is - shall I fight it or shall I embrace it? I will let you know about the result anyway.

 

Hi,

Yup, the limit for TACT is 1/4 wavelength. And THAT any other equalisation system can do too.

BTW, the limit for 345Hz is 25cm wall distance....

I wish TACT would stop claiming their EQ removes early reflections....

Ciao T

 

As do I. They also give the impression it can improve decay rate. All it does is turn down the frequency that is too loud so its decay gets to a lower level faster. The decay RATE is still just the same and it took me a while to actually get them to admit that when talking at the shows! In many cases EQ can makes the decay more un-even than without it.

Anyway, this is not a TacT bashing thread! I just wanted to voice that it might not do its usual tricks so well with an omni.

 

I always think Shahinians sound lovely, a very natural presentation. I'd quite like to try some Omni's some time. It's on my list.

 

Nomoretweaks

I have Arcs is a very slightly larger room than yours and use them quite close to the wall (closer than the Shahinian recommended 30cm). I have a friend with Obelisks in a similar sized room and these need more room to breathe. Primarily this isn't casued by the based but by the additional midrange and treble units (one more of each than an Arc) causing a harshness from the immediate wall.

I think that the primary requirment may be down to your amplification, Arcs are far easier to drive than Obelisks (Obs have a significant dip in their impedance curve making them require very current driving amplifiers)

Both of them have great room filling capabilities and I often use my Arcs when watching the TV which is off to the side of the room. The sound just fills the room at low volume so you don't notice that the sources of the sound are way off from the TV picture.

If you are buying new, then I'm sure a Shahinian dealer would do a home demo/loan (though delaers aren't alwayd local, but you can't be far from Infedility)

If you are buying s/h, then I would suggest buying a pair of Arcs to try as these are much easy to sell again s/h if you don't get on with them. (or your partner doesn't like veneered swing-bins)

Beware though once you have had Shahinians you can't go back!! (that will suit your username!)

There are many Shahinian users on PFM so you may get a better response over on that forum.

Mr Perceptive

 

Thank you, Mr. Perseptive,

this is a very balanced and wise point of view IMHO, and swing beans may well be the best option. If anything it will suit the garbage accumulated on my CD shelves.

 

If you intend to buy the Arcs new, also consider the Heed Envoys, they cost about the same (3k) and are said to be a nice improvement.

 

they are rear ported, aren't they, and they do not have a passive radiator. I doubt if they will work well so close to the wall. And they have some minor bass issues IFAIK.

 

Rear ported, yes, although the rear port is actually the end of a 1/4 wave transmission line. Whether or not a passive radiator is a better solution is debatable, in the end it comes down to execution. They do work reasonably close to a rear wall, about 10" minimum distance, I'd say. They do not have minor bass issues, they just need some care taken over set-up, the same as the Shahinians.

I did a lengthy thread on the Heeds over on pfm. Heed say that they had the Arc to hand as a yardstick during the development of the Envoys and wouldn't have released their speaker if they didn't think it bettered the Arc in every way. As Alpar is a very open and honest man, I'm inclined to believe him.

Jason Hector reviewed the Envoys in Hifi+; he preferred the Obs, but those are quite a bit more expensive than both Arcs and Envoys. Having heard his system, I think I know why he prefers the Obs, and in his circumstances I might well come to the same preference. But your room is a good bit larger than the one Jason is using, and I'm not at all sure I'd prefer the Obs in a larger room.

Still, it's your ears that would have to be the arbiter.

 

Thank you, Markus. Who sells Envoys?

 

Dexter's Heed thread is here. It also has a link to the British importer, presumably they will have a list of dealers.

Mine is here.

The price has been dropped from the 3,150 mentioned by Dexter to an even 3,000.

 

Heed Audio resellers:

http://www.tsource.co.uk/extra3.html

Grahams seem to sell them, so it looks like a good place to compare.

 

Hi Markus,

any chance you could elaborate on why you're not sure whether you'd prefer the Obs in a larger room?

cheers
Matt

 

I have just bought Arcs, hope they will arrive undamaged. Can't wait to compare Shahinians with ATC 35 directly in my room!

(thanks for the link Markus, I've read Heed threads, very interesting indeed, I'll keep it in mind, but since omnis as such is a big enough leap of faith for me at the moment, I desided to buy a used pair for a start, just to try)

PS And, as always, knowing that I may well part with ATCs soon, they start sounding fantastic.