Bach's Art of Fugue

bat said:
I mean this:

Fact 1: The unfinished fugue was a form of energy.
Fact 2: Energy cannot be destroyed
Corollary of facts 1 and 2: The unfinished fugue was not destroyed.
Fact 3:It is impossible to find the unfinished fugue.
Corollary of fact 3: The unfinished fugue is not in this world.
Corollary: There has to be another world where the unfinished fugue still exists.
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I actually like that! Will we know it in another world and how do we get there?
 
Rodrigo de Sá said:
My guess is that the piece is truly unfinished, that Bach had more or less solved it on his mind but that he, for whatever reason, did not finish it. Was he unhappy with the result? Was the difficulty too formidable? (I don't think so); or did health fail him, as his son said? Most probably the last one.
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This is also what I think about this issue.

I wonder if Bat would claim, that the conclusion of the unfinished Fugue exists in a parallel universe, if it only existed in Bach's mind.:rolleyes:;):D

And was the unfinished Fuge intended to become a part of the Art of the Fugue?

I tend the most to believe, that the AoF is complete without it, and that Bach had not planned more Contrapuncti than the seventeen we know. He was preparing the AoF for publication in the last days of his life, and he probably knew, that he only had a short time left, so why should he use energy to write another Fugue with no relation to the AoF? The answer is probably, that the AoF was complete already.

If we on the other hand suppose, that the Fugue á 4 was intended to become Contrapunctus XIV of the AoF, this may explain why he worked with it at that time.

But if it was intended to become a part of the AoF I find the theory about the quadruple Fugue (the main theme combined with the three themes of the unfinished Fugue) ridiculous. Bach would rather have concluded the triple Fugue with some further combinations of the three established themes, and maybe he later would have written another triple Fugue combining the BACH theme with the main them of the AoF and maybe the second theme of the unfinished Fugue, which combines well. And maybe later he would have written a quadruple Fugue with these three themes and a new fourth theme or maybe a theme derived from some of the earlier Contrapuncti. Like you I find the first theme of the unfinished Fugue too similar to the main theme of the AoF, making the combination of these two themes unlikely, as far as I know Bach's working principles and artistic self demands.

Regards,
 
pe-zulu said:
This is also what I think about this issue.

(...) was the unfinished Fuge intended to become a part of the Art of the Fugue?

I tend the most to believe, that the AoF is complete without it, and that Bach had not planned more Contrapuncti than the seventeen we know. He was preparing the AoF for publication in the last days of his life, and he probably knew, that he only had a short time left, so why should he use energy to write another Fugue with no relation to the AoF? The answer is probably, that the AoF was complete already.

If we on the other hand suppose, that the Fugue á 4 was intended to become Contrapunctus XIV of the AoF, this may explain why he worked with it at that time.

But if it was intended to become a part of the AoF I find the theory about the quadruple Fugue (the main theme combined with the three themes of the unfinished Fugue) ridiculous. Bach would rather have concluded the triple Fugue with some further combinations of the three established themes, and maybe he later would have written another triple Fugue combining the BACH theme with the main them of the AoF and maybe the second theme of the unfinished Fugue, which combines well. And maybe later he would have written a quadruple Fugue with these three themes and a new fourth theme or maybe a theme derived from some of the earlier Contrapuncti. Like you I find the first theme of the unfinished Fugue too similar to the main theme of the AoF, making the combination of these two themes unlikely, as far as I know Bach's working principles and artistic self demands.

Regards,
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Fascinating idea. I recall I read a book by a French musicologist that also defended that the 'fuga a 4' was the beginning of a new cycle of fugues (just as the existing fugues are combined into 'cycles'). Your suggestion is fascinating. We will never know but we will be haunted by those questions: if Bach had not been operated by that quack doctor, if, if... But in all truth I think you are probably right: it may have been the beginning of a new cycle, a way of introducing new material for further work. Fascinating!
 
How often does Walcha drop the bass line into the pedals? Someone commenting on a Youtube video of the first three fugues (Contrapunctus #1,2,3) stated that Walcha was not using the pedals for those three. Is that accurate?
 
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Walcha Art of Fugue

Grothendieck said:
How often does Walcha drop the bass line into the pedals? Someone commenting on a Youtube video of the first three fugues (Contrapunctus #1,2,3) stated that Walcha was not using the pedals for those three. Is that accurate?
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He is using the pedal for the bass part in all the Contrapuncti except in the four Canon's (written for two parts) and in Contrapunctus VIII (written for three parts), so he is also using the pedal in the three first Contrapuncti. His intention must have been to make the work sound like a genuine organ work.
 
pe-zulu said:
He is using the pedal for the bass part in all the Contrapuncti except in the four Canon's (written for two parts) and in Contrapunctus VIII (written for three parts), so he is also using the pedal in the three first Contrapuncti. His intention must have been to make the work sound like a genuine organ work.
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Pe-zulu - Thank you very much for your reply! I thought that the commenter at Youtube must be incorrect. Rodrigo had written about Louis Thiry's use of the pedals for much of the Well-Tempered Clavier as demonstrating great virtuosity. I assumed that Walcha, with his high level of virtuosity, must also be using the pedals often.

More generally, it has been extremely valuable for a musical layperson, like myself, to read your discussions with Rodrigo and others. I very much appreciated the gracious welcome to Zerogain from you and Rodrigo even if I failed miserably to make that clear at the time.

Thank you again.
 
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Grothendieck said:
Pe-zulu - Thank you very much for your reply! I thought that the commenter at Youtube must be incorrect. Rodrigo had written about Louis Thiry's use of the pedals for much of the Well-Tempered Clavier as demonstrating great virtuosity. I assumed that someone with a high level of virtuosity like Walcha must also be using the pedals often.

More generally, it has been extremely valuable for a musical layperson like myself to read your discussions with Rodrigo and others. I very much appreciated the gracious welcome to Zerogain from you and Rodrigo even if I failed miserably to make that clear at the time.

Thank you again.
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You are very welcome.

An afterthought. Concerning Walcha's use of pedal in the AoF I forgot to mention Contrapunctus IX (for four parts). The bass part of this Contrapunctus would most of the time be next to impossible to play with the feet, and as far as I recall he does not use the pedal in this piece. Shall relisten to it soon to be able to tell.

I much regret, that my spare time for a forum like this is so sparse, that I visit it only rarely. And that Rodrigo seems to have disappeared. One of my problems in writing here is that English isn't my first tongue, which means, that writing takes rather much time.

However you put a question some time ago, as far as I remember in the organ music thread, which neither of us answered. I will try to get the time to answer it.

All the best
 
pe-zulu said:
An afterthought. Concerning Walcha's use of pedal in the AoF
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Relistening to Walcha's AoF:

He plays the bass part on the pedal in Contrapuncti I, II, III, IV, V, VI, IX, X and XI as well as in the two mirror fugues and the incomplete Fugue á 4.

He does not use the pedal in Contrapuncti VII and VIII nor in the four Canons.
 
pe-zulu said:
Relistening to Walcha's AoF:

He plays the bass part on the pedal in Contrapuncti I, II, III, IV, V, VI, IX, X and XI as well as in the two mirror fugues and the incomplete Fugue á 4.

He does not use the pedal in Contrapuncti VII and VIII nor in the four Canons.
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Thanks for taking the time to relisten.
 

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