Basic vectors

amir

amir

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Hi guys
can you describe basic vectors of sound.
we know in physics for describing space we define three vertical vector : x and y and z
these vectors are quite vertical together.

i want to analyse the sound of one system in some vertical charachter.
can you help me?

i think we can divide sound to three charachter :

-Soundstage
-Pace and Speed (timing)
-Transparency (openness and clarity)

in electronics these charachter refer to :
-Linearity (across frequency)
-Rise time (Time domain)
-Phase response (Frequency domain)

do you have any idea?
 
Amir, what you described as "vectors" for sound

-Soundstage
-Pace and Speed (timing)
-Transparency (openness and clarity)

sound (if you'll pardon the expression) like characteristics observed as a consequence of using various bits of sound equipment, not as characteristics of sound itself.

As far as pace and speed are concerned (two words for the same thing), sound travels at 760 mph at sea level and at normal temperature and pressure. It can be changed only by altering those parameters, something not usually done deliberately when listening to hi-fi!
 
Amir, the basic vectors of a sound you can find in the elementry physic books but I believe, that is not what you're looking for.

You should first define what you mean by "sound":
- that what a microphone would percept?
- the result of what your ear captures and your mind elaborates?
- or what else?
 
tones said:
As far as pace and speed are concerned (two words for the same thing), sound travels at 760 mph at sea level and at normal temperature and pressure. It can be changed only by altering those parameters, something not usually done deliberately when listening to hi-fi!
Click to expand...
A perverse and wilful misinterpretation if I ever saw one.

Amir is clearly trying to formularise the experience of a hifi system rather than just sound in physical terms. A man trying to spark an interesting debate in the face of adversity :(
 
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greg said:
A perverse and wilful misinterpretation if I ever saw one.

Amir is clearly trying to formularise the experience of a hifi system rather than just sound in physical terms. A man trying to spark an interesting debate in the face of adversity :(
Click to expand...

Not at all, merely an example to show the inappropriateness of the terminology used. If you use "speed" in connection with "sound", quite simply there is no other meaning. There may be words for what Amir wants (I don't know them), but it seems to me that those which he has chosen are not they. You will also note the absence in the original mail to any reference to "the experience of a hifi system..in physical terms". It was couched in basic physical parameters, unrelated to how a hi-fi sounds.
 
Some people spend too much time listening to hi-fi and not enough time listening to music. At the end of the day the hi-fi should be the medium not the message.
I hope we all agree with that?
 
lordsummit said:
Some people spend too much time listening to hi-fi and not enough time listening to music. At the end of the day the hi-fi should be the medium not the message.
I hope we all agree with that?
Click to expand...
Weeeeeeeelllll, m'lud, there are some of us who would most definitely agree. There are others, about whom I have considerable doubts - they're like the Flanders & Swann "Song of Reproduction"

But I never did care for music much!
It's the high-fi-del-it-tee!
 
lordsummit said:
Some people spend too much time listening to hi-fi and not enough time listening to music. At the end of the day the hi-fi should be the medium not the message.
I hope we all agree with that?
Click to expand...
Whilst I would place myself in the "my hifi is for listening to my music collection" rather than "my music collection is for listening to my hifi" camp and I haven't changed any component, cable or plug in my system for 18 months - this is a Hi-Fi forum and Amir's thread was placed in the Hi-Fi section. He asked IMO an interesting question and is IME a mild mannered janitor. I find it difficult to see where Amir is going wrong. I'd also add if Tones is more of a music lover why arent his posts exclusively or even mostly in the music section?
 
People have opinions Greg. Amir asked a question. Tones gave an answer, you also are entitled to give an answer, this is after all a forum. You are entitled to have your say and express your point of view. You obviously disagree with Tones, but I don't see anywhere you offering a different interpretation. As far as I can see you have not yourself offered anything constructive to the debate. I think Amir needs to go and listen to equipment for himself, and then decide what he likes. In terms of the amount he's spending (spent) a flight to London etc would be money well spent I think. He could go to one of the big shows in London or Manchester, and see what gear sounds like, then let his ears do the deciding, not some equation based on notional concepts.
I don't think anyone's going wrong, but just because people have different viewpoints to yourself doesn't make them targets for flak.
If Tones wants to express his opinions on any forum he may do so so long as he remains within the bounds of the AUP, something I'm quite sure he will do. His answer was relevant to the question, and I can see nothing wrong with. The same rules of course apply to you.
A long winded response to a simple question maybe, but I hope one that answers your question.
My constructive comment would be that Pace and Speed are really euphanisms for those musical concepts of attack and decay, and how accurately the gear portrays those. By emphasising the start of notes you can make the equipment sound 'faster' at least until you get tired of listening to that portrayal.
 
lordsummit said:
People have opinions Greg. Amir asked a question. Tones gave an answer, you also are entitled to give an answer, this is after all a forum. You are entitled to have your say and express your point of view. You obviously disagree with Tones, but I don't see anywhere you offering a different interpretation. As far as I can see you have not yourself offered anything constructive to the debate. I think Amir needs to go and listen to equipment for himself, and then decide what he likes. In terms of the amount he's spending (spent) a flight to London etc would be money well spent I think. He could go to one of the big shows in London or Manchester, and see what gear sounds like, then let his ears do the deciding, not some equation based on notional concepts.
I don't think anyone's going wrong, but just because people have different viewpoints to yourself doesn't make them targets for flak.
If Tones wants to express his opinions on any forum he may do so so long as he remains within the bounds of the AUP, something I'm quite sure he will do. His answer was relevant to the question, and I can see nothing wrong with. The same rules of course apply to you.
A long winded response to a simple question maybe, but I hope one that answers your question.
My constructive comment would be that Pace and Speed are really euphanisms for those musical concepts of attack and decay, and how accurately the gear portrays those. By emphasising the start of notes you can make the equipment sound 'faster' at least until you get tired of listening to that portrayal.
Click to expand...
Blimey LS - be careful when getting down from that very high horse :) .

Tones initial comment "As far as pace and speed are concerned (two words for the same thing), sound travels at 760 mph at sea level and at normal temperature and pressure. It can be changed only by altering those parameters, something not usually done deliberately when listening to hi-fi!" how am I disagreeing with his opinion - I was merely pointing it out for what it is - a p*ss take rather than an answer or opinion. I would add my comments were hardly flak.

Then you commented "Some people spend too much time listening to hi-fi and not enough time listening to music." and I went on to point out that asking a Hifi question on a hifi forum seems a natural pattern IMO. Call me a troll if you like, but I dont see it myself.
 
greg said:
I'd also add if Tones is more of a music lover why arent his posts exclusively or even mostly in the music section?
Click to expand...
They are - check out the classical section.
 
lordsummit said:
In fact Titian, I'll drive across to you and take away a car full if you want......
Click to expand...
You're outa luck. fella. I'll be there on Saturday with the car - you can have what I don't want...
 
I don't think you can display the perceived quality of a Hi-Fi on a graph! Accuracy perhaps, but one of the things you NEED to include is the effect the room has on the sound.

Things like prat... its not all down to the speed of the system (rise fall time, transient response, room decay rate) as I think things like frequency response subjectively effect this as well. How clear and un-distorted effect how 'fast' the brain perceives the sound to be; how easily it can tell what is going on. It's all just a gamble in the end but I think experienced designers / system builders can make an educated guess.

Its a bit quiet on here tonight isn't it?
 
hi Tenson
If you be familiar with electronics i think we can get a good idea.
in electronics for a system at first we define linearity accross frequency range and it mean : if we apply x1(t) to system we recieve y1(t) and like that y2(t) is response of x2(t). we say system is linear if we apply x1(t)+x2(t) and recieve y1(t)+y2(t).
i think linearity reffer to soundstage and microdynamic.
second for a linear system we define frequency domain function, amplitude and phase across frequency. every system like 'hifi plus accoustic of room' has these two response in frequency domain.
phase response and flat amplitude refer to neutrality, openness, transparency and frequency extension mean rise time in time domain analyse that i think it reffer to timing, pace, speed.

I know for accurate describing a system we need many parameteres but i like to simplify sound analysing with more important factors.
 
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