Climbing the PC ladder....

Im most definately NOT trying to start any arguements...

But Im wondering if Im the only one on the forum who isnt persuaded that attention to mains is worth any more than a passing thought?

Honestly genuinely interested in who else isnt won over...

Cheers

Chris

 

Chris, Thats a fair comment, I don't think everyone does
But over the last 6 months or so while, Having conducting various research into this very subject, I can only comment on my findings (and those I have carried out at guy's own systems).
Ok regardless of how you achieve it, my own conclutions are the Power supply/regulation/conditioning/delivery is one of the most fundemental aspects (along with rooms) that has a very marked effect on the sound of a system Big statement yes, but I stand by it, after all what ever you equipment Krell/rotel/Nad/Wadia/arcam/Dcs, the all have one thing in common, Mains power feed.
How ever there is a previso or two, the system has to be realitively transpartent to show this, by this I mean, when you change a component in the stream you can hear a difference (be it good or bad, but a difference clearly heard).
Why not come and check it out, bring your power leads along, and you can do all the swopping and changing, and see what you feel. Tone

 

Hi Kermit,

Both solutions are totally valid IMO, the purpose of this thread was to highlight the qualities high end PCs can bring to a system, as they are generally thought of as madness by the masses

The comparision really is between mains upgrades and hardware upgrades. IMO everyone should really try to extract the full potential from their existing boxes before giving those despicable retailers more of their hard earned.

On a cost basis, my Viper cost 300 quid, the Hydra 900GBP, so both of our approaches have acheived full system conditioning for similar ball park figures. The Hydra in particular seems agood idea, as it not only stops the crap from the wall getting to the system, but also works in reverse, by preventing the RFI generated by the kit from leaking out.

Add on mains treatments such as conditioners and cables should I feel really be seen in the same light as components such can be their effect. With this in mind they should also be auditioned just as you would say a new pair of speakers, in your own system at home. Just as there is no best loudspeaker, there is also no best mains solution, both choices are highly system dependent.

.

Fair point Henry, but if a lake has water entering one end and exiting the other through streams of similar size and gradient, then the velocity on exit will be the same, only the crud will have been left behind...ermm I think

Chris, you would be welcome to come and hear a graphic demonstration of mains treatments sometime, I'm also located in Bucks and I suspect one cable replacement might make you a believer

 

£900 for the hydra?
i,m guessing that it,s a s/h bargain then ,as i thought the hydra was around a couple of grand new.
i,m supprised at how little you,ve spent on cables , merlin , i had visions of a couple of grands worth of hydra and five or six of the matching cords , hence my expensive wiring loom comment .
i agree with your thoughts that mains conditioners are system dependent , but i,d mirror WM,s sentiments that pc,s are also system dependent .
they have to be , apart from doing the nescessary filtering i also think that they impart a sonic signature and hence suit some peoples tastes (and systems)and not others .
i also believe that (contrary to most naim users beliefs)there is a cable /filtration system that will bring rewards to their kit .
i just don,t know what it is yet(insert smiley)
i had the oppurtunity, a few weeks back, to try some of my stuff with a naim amp (i think it was a nait2) , but i chose not to bother in the end cos i couldn,t hear any of the well known naim traits (prat)with the rest of the stuff in the system .
so i felt i would be on a hiding to nothing to even try.

 

Yes Kermit, the joys of Audiogon

I managed to pick up the Hydra for $1400 c/w Taipan hook up. The Viper was $400 and i've just ordered a King Cobra V2 (couldn't resist ) for the princely sum of $750. I reterminated my existing Nordost and Eupen cables with US Marinco plugs so that I could feed everything through the Hydra.

Now new I agree, this little lot would cost about six and a half grand from the UK importer But thanks to bargains inc. on the other side of thew pond, I've put it together for about a quarter of that. I accept it's still a lot of money, but there is no way spending that amount on a component upgrade would have acheived as spectactular results.

Absolutely, that is what I was saying above. Shunyata actually make different ranges of cables for individual purposes. Just to give you an idea, the Noise cancellers like the Viper work superbly at removing hash and adding warmth and body by cancelling RFI. The pacesetters however, like the Taipan, hook up to amps and subs, and IMO boost the PRAT factor like no others I suspect WM would agree with me there

HERETIC Don't even go there, I feel that Naim is probably an exception here due to their unique PS arrangements. Only the CDP's are likely to really benefit from RFI reduction I suspect, in fact it would be interesting to put something like the King Cobra on a CDS2 It may obviate the need for that ruinously expensive XPS at about 20% of the cost

 

I've got no basis to comment on this stuff ... but will anyway

Using the old 'rubbish in, rubbish out' notion ... in a normal home set up isn't the electricity buggered already by the time it gets to the power chord and so the expensive power chord is just letting through what is less than optimal? The expensive chord can't actually ADD anything, just smooth the way a little.

Why can't we just use good quality mains cable and decent plugs toi replace our original 'bell wire' quality connections to the wall?

What is it about these 'rip off' (my ignorant view, sorry!) chords that can possibly justify some of the daft pricing and that can't be replicated after some careful thought and an order from Maplin or somewhere?

I can see some logic in the separate, dedicated spur route as we're then getting a much cleaner supply of juice.

I can see that some people have really enjoyed their expensive power chords ... somehow, I just struggle with the cost benefit.

Do we have any recipes for good. solid mains chords that the more financially circumspect amongst us could benefit from?

Dave

 

Hi Condy.

Most of my DIY cables are in fact proper bought ones. 'audiophile candy' used to do their own range of power cables, apparently the equal of a famous £300 power cable...I forget which.

When I called, they'd stopped making them, but sold me all the 'bits' to make five cables up for £100 (they retailed at £60 each).

I put them all together.. and was blown away. The difference was incredible....well, it was incredible that their wasnt any difference! hehe

Ive since had shop demos of true colour industries, shunyata cables, and others too.

The best result Ive ever heard is things getting marginally brighter, or marginally duller. Nothing I'd personally say is worth spending any money on. I still use the cables I bought because its conveniant, theres no way Id spend even the £100 I have spent again if I had the choice.

IF you are going to try some, all Id suggest to anyone is make sure you get whatever cable it is on a sale or return basis, because while some peope experience massive differences, others (like me) experience little to none...

As for DIY - if you fancy trying it for a giggle, try Zanash - he is the king of DIY.

IF you do try some changes and experience nothing I think its important to voice that opinion - or you get I think a false representation by reading a thread....that all parties agree because only one opinion is voiced.... Im only a bit conscious though that my constant nay-saying must be boring the tits off the regulars!! hehe

Chris

 

Don't worry Chris,

My VDH PCs didn't make any difference in a friends system, very similar to mine, he had to visit me to believe what they made to my system...

 

Seperate spurs/Dedicated suppiles to hifi only components is good step in the right direction, and relitively cheap to preform to (From around £80 to £500 for the Mcb's/box/wiring and sockets) , gives good rewards for the investments.
What are you achieving by this, well Isolation from virtually ALL house bound contamination, IE Fridge/kettle/washing machine/tumble dryer/shower/cooker Etc. Big bouns
However, the same Shit is still coming in the house, albeit now pretty free of internal 'upsets', but it's still full of HF and common mode mains grunge, which You are Still feeding to the hifi system.
How you deal with rest is well up to you, weather you spend sums on trick power leads, mains filtering, reconstructing or just decent hard wired internal distribution units, is a matter of choice, I personaly would not use anything less that a power conditioner and HF filtering (and have done for over a year now) knowing the benefits it gives in MY system Virtually every where we have taken the power leads/condioners/filters they produced good sized increases in system preformance.
The beauty of the method is, one you have it in place, it's universal, so if you swop boxes at some point, you won't need to change the power side

Chris wrote..........


When I called, they'd stopped making them, but sold me all the 'bits' to make five cables up for £100 (they retailed at £60 each).

I put them all together.. and was blown away. The difference was incredible....well, it was incredible that their wasnt any difference! hehe

Ive since had shop demos of true colour industries, shunyata cables, and others too.

The best result Ive ever heard is things getting marginally brighter, or marginally duller. Nothing I'd personally say is worth spending any money on. I still use the cables I bought because its conveniant, theres no way Id spend even the £100 I have spent again if I had the choice.

IF you are going to try some, all Id suggest to anyone is make sure you get whatever cable it is on a sale or return basis, because while some peope experience massive differences, others (like me) experience little to none...

I do agree with a most of the points in there, and they are valid for all INDIVDUAL systems, I used to use Eupen's (£48) for all my leads, for the money a cracking cable and quiet happly as good as most stuff up to £120 (with better traits than some £170 cables), but a good improvement over stock (a no brainer really IMHO) also a lot of happy users on this forum too.
I do have a vested intrest in cables, however During the past 6 months or so, I have seriously had my eyes (and ears opened to how much an effect of the overall sound mains power has on it)
Now I'm not saying go out and spend great sums of cash on trick cables (power), what I'm saying is, those that think if they bought a $600 power lead and plugged it in, it'll transform their system by it's self aint gunna happen, it may make a good difference, but the effect is comminicative, ie it needs to help/supplement the rest of the equipment.
Also different systems produce different results, due to their assembly, I use 2 different manufactures power leads, one for Trans+dac the other for the amp, and if you swop em' over Humm, intreseting results are had
Chris, I have to make this observation, you never seem to notice much of a difference weather It's a power cable/conditioning/speaker cable/Interconnects/Stands
Maybe you just the like sound you have and are used to it, possibly and some changes that may/may not be there just dont registar, for example last week when we were at Dino's just watching all the faces of the guys as items were changed one at a time, each indivdual was looking/listening for a 'Specific' difference, only 2 we listening for the musical togetherness
AS you have always been cautious towards all these different methods of 'alledged improvement' (justifibly so), I think you should come out to have a genuine listen for yourself, the other guys do, gives them a chance to gauge for themselves without recoarse to parting with drinking vochers You could bring along your cables, and I'd put them in the system first, the swop to the ones I'm currently using, and some DIY ones, and then you could assertain for yourself, IF you thought there was any differenices at all.
I'm going as far to say, if you system is transparent enough, and you use a good I/C (not a mega buck one or flash name) a decent one should suffice, then the power will have more of an effect, then changing an I/c (in the relitive terms of the system)
A good I/C lets through more of the signal (but if the signals still not good, then it may sound some what worse ).
Have a think about it Chris, and if you don't feel any differences were there/not there, they I aint gunna be upset. Cheers Tone

 

I agree with to a certain extent Chris. I've not come across any systems so far which don't respond at all to power cables and conditioning. For those that say they can't hear any difference at all in their system, I guess there are a number of possibilities. They already have ultra clean and contamination free mains power (lucky them :rolleyes), the power supplies in their kit are engineered beyond reproach, they don't listen in the same way that others who do report differences do, or that their system is not sufficiently revealing (in the "hi-fi" kind of way). There's no shame at all in a having a system that is not as ultra revealing or transparent as Mr & Mrs Jones next door, after all, most of us just want to listen to the music, not the way the equipment is reproducing it or what the engineer was doing during the session/mastering stages. There are system I've heard which I'd admit, I'd probably not bother as they really are quite "engaging" enough as they are. The main thing is, as long as you're happy with the music/sound you're getting, to hell with what everyone else thinks.

I think you and Merlin should meet up, preferably at your place Chris initially. I personally predict the expensive power chords will not be worth bothering with in your system. All IMHO, of course.

BTW, how's the CJ pre amp, have you got it fixed yet?

The issue of a dedicated circuit IMO has more to do with the supply of *consistant* current to satisfy the transient demands of certain pieces of equipment in our system, like amplfiers for instance. Which is better, a short and unbroken run of cable, or a much longer piece of cable which has been cut up in several places and joined back up together with connector blocks (which is what a typical household ring main is just like) - which gives better current flow under all load conditions?

Of course, we can also use RFI cancelling cable to wire up our dedicated spurs/circuits with. The cable used to make the £60 or whatever mains leads can usually be bought off the real in unterminated lengths, so this could also be used to supplement the RF rejection of the more expensive cables further down the in chain. Of course, there is only so much you can do by passive means with cables alone, which is where power condtioners and HF filtering also come in, which is why we need both approaches.

 

Do have a look at this if you are interested

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/caelin/caelin.html

I know that this link is effectively an advertorial for a certain manufacturer, but I feel some of the points discussed might help to shed some light on the subject for the doubters out there. If you ignore the product hype, there are some interesting points of view there, cunningly put into layman's terms so that even fools like me can get an understanding.

Now I'm not saying everything said is true, just that I like the guy's style, particularly with regard to objectivity

 

Suppose it could be that my system is not one to benefit from mains tweakery. My amp has a massive pair of partridge transformers on it that could be a part of that..

Maybe valve amps per se dont need PC changes... but then I think Deans changed his round... not sure on that one..

Perhaps its that I prefer a rounded full bodied sound to a crsipy flatish studio sound? Again, dunno..

Maybe I have heard the difference, but just didnt equate it to something worth striving for.. again.. dunno!! lol

Think I should quit while Im behind..

Chris