Dance of the Seven Veils

[wadia-miester]

Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by Tom Alves
What really surprised me was how similar a good valve setup was to Naim with these speakers.

Tom, have you considered that these speakers have a big say in the overall end result?. I have heard a lot of quality valve set up's and they are far removed from a naim sound as you can get, however the sound between your own system and Tom's you say was quite similar, may a common denominator was a work possibly, and the speakers give there 'own' slant on things. more so than others maybe? WM

 

[merlin]

Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by wadia-miester
I have heard a lot of quality valve set up's and they are far removed from a naim sound as you can get, WM

To be fair WM, I too have heard a number of valve setups, and no two have sounded the same. People's generalisation of the valve sound usualtl involves warm billowy mids and soft bass. Not what you get with Audio Research, Border Patrol or BAT. These ranges seem to have a directness and explicitness that could be compared with Naim kit in some circumstances.

On the other hand, IMO a speaker will usually have it's own distinctive character regardless of electronics, save for a very few.

 

[7_V]

Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by wadia-miester
I have heard a lot of quality valve set up's and they are far removed from a naim sound as you can get, however the sound between your own system and Tom's you say was quite similar, may a common denominator was a work possibly, and the speakers give there 'own' slant on things. more so than others maybe?

In fact the Seventh Veil Nonsuch 4 speakers give less of their 'own slant' than most other loudspeakers and I'll attempt to explain why. I'm sorry that this post is a bit long but I want to give a little basic speaker design theory.

Let's take moving coil speakers as our example. Those that are mounted in cabinets (sealed, ported or TL) will have internal standing waves that need damping. These standing waves have frequencies that depend on the dimensions of the cabinet. Naturally, each manufacturer attempts to damp these waves with internal stuffing. So, each cabinet speaker has its own unique character, depending on its dimensions and the amount of damping used.

The Nonsuch 4s have an egg-shaped interior which dramatically reduces standing waves and the 'character' that these introduce. For a simple demonstration of this, remove the drivers from any cabinet and talk (or sing) into the cabinet through the hole where the drivers went. Compare the sound made by the Nonsuch 4s in this way with any other boxes on the market. This simple test will dramatically effect your views on what is neutral and what has character. I'm happy to arrange this test for anyone who wants to visit me and bring their boxes with them.

Let's move on to cabinet vibration. The largest component of this is panel vibration, which depends on the size of the flat panels used. Bracing will increase the frequency of these vibrations; it won't remove them. My solution to reducing panel vibration? - eliminate the panels. Check the construction details on the web site to see how this is achieved.

What about diffraction, another common major contributor to a speaker's character? It's been known for decades that having a radius on the baffle edges smooths this effect. Much of the original research here was done by legendary acoustics engineer, Olsen, and has been copied in virtually every other speaker design text book since. You would think that all speaker manufacturers would round their baffle edges, wouldn't you? Which ones actually do? Well, Seventh Veil and ....

And crossovers ...

Can anyone really claim that using crossover circuits in the line reduces 'character'? The best components in the world, active or passive can't compare with no components. Crossovers add 'character' in three basic ways:

1. Amplitude imbalances between drive units.
2. Phase errors at the crossover point.
3. The speaker goes from (typically) a moving coil bass driver to a dome or ribbon tweeter with totally different sonic characteristics.

Some speakers, such as Robbo's ProAc Response 1SC do well in this respect by having the crossover point at a respectably high 5kHz. This coupled with the simplicity and phase coherence of the 1st order filters used explains the excellent mid-frequency response that these speakers exhibit (what, you thought it happened by magic or coincidence?). Of course, the Nonsuch 4s go one better by using no crossovers or filters whatsoever. To say that the mid-range of the Proacs is superior to the Nonsuch 4s ... dream on Robbo! Of course, if you want to stop dreaming let's compare the two speakers with identical front ends (something that is known to be top class in the mids). Let's listen to some vocal work as the human mind has evolved to be capable of extreme differentiation with voices. Female vocals would show up the differences most clearly.

Finally, Meadowlark Shearwaters are certainly balanced to have more bass than the Little Awesomes. Deeper, more tuneful or tighter bass? I'd be very surprised (given identical amplification).

Character is an interesting phenomenon with loudspeakers. Of course most modern music (and recordings) make it difficult to judge what's natural and what has character. The speaker should be compared to the sound of a live performance using acoustic instruments and, preferably, to the sound of the human voice.

 

[wadia-miester]

Merlin, has made a Valid point, I'll clarify for you guy's, I'm talking class valve amps Manley/Graff/Acoustic Reserach/Conrad Johnson/Jeff Roland/BP, they are not what people perceive the valve sound to be, these are textious dynamic and fuild amps with more than a smattering of power, and are far removed from the Warm and cuddly sound as naim is delicasey.
I would personaly consider owning a manley or B/P if circumstances were different WM

 

[Robbo]

Steve,

Regarding midrange quality, I can only say what I hear, and I dont really want to get into a long discussion, as at the end of the day it is only my opinion. The proacs are better from what I have heard, IMO. Have you ever listened to any?

I had an Audio Research CA50 valve amp in my possession for a short while last week, which was superb with the proacs. Both merlin and myself were stunned by the midrange, which was of electrostatic quality. It would have been interesting to compare the two speakers.

The only thing you have failed to mention in your last reply is the quality of the drive units. Surely, this makes a significant difference as well. Are the Bandors as good in the midrange as the proac unit? (I dont know the answer to that, just asking the question)

Robbo

 

[wadia-miester]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by 7_V

Finally, Meadowlark Shearwaters are certainly balanced to have more bass than the Little Awesomes. Deeper, more tuneful or tighter bass? I'd be very surprised (given identical amplification).

Character is an interesting phenomenon with loudspeakers. Of course most modern music (and recordings) make it difficult to judge what's natural and what has character. The speaker should be compared to the sound of a live performance using acoustic instruments and, preferably, to the sound of the human voice.

Steve, I wouldn't disagree with your comment above, given the same amps/cables, although as they were designed specificaly for that purpose (for lower bass reproduction), I'd be pissed if they weren't, but just to put it into persepective, the shearwaters reatail are very close to the little awesome price bracket (within £300), plus you get the full range as well.
If you are looking for a close to neutral sound as it gets, then maybe a studio monitor, for turthful reproduction to compair against?, but do you really want a neutral sound, a few do for sure.
This a just a case or pure personal choices nothing more, although, I'd be up for the chanlenge at robbo's with the same amp (valve) and speaker cable, as the 7 v's are 8 times the price of the Responce one's, how much better do you have to be to justify the price difference, this can be levelled at losts of kit.
I think Steve you might be seriously surprised at what they are capable of. WM

 

[7_V]

Originally posted by Robbo

The only thing you have failed to mention in your last reply is the quality of the drive units. Surely, this makes a significant difference as well. Are the Bandors as good in the midrange as the proac unit? (I dont know the answer to that, just asking the question)

Yes, the quality of the drive units makes a huge difference.

I can only give my opinion which is that the Bandors are head and shoulders better than anything else out there. Just my opinion though.

To answer W-M's point ...

There's no question that the Proacs represent fabulous value for money. To go better you would have to spend much more. Incidentally, I've got nothing against the Meadowlarks either. I would concede that they do some things that my babies can't.

Is Robbo's place suitable for the challenge? It's certainly fair location-wise. I'd love it. Let's bring some neutrals up, say Tom (yup, he's neutral ) or maybe Alex or Jason. Could Merlin make it? That would really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

What fun.

Steve

 

[penance]

WM, i know i probably shouldnt ask
but why is the speaker cable blanked out in your piccy of the speakers?

 

[bottleneck]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by 7_V


For a simple demonstration of this, remove the drivers from any cabinet and talk (or sing) into the cabinet through the hole where the drivers went. Compare the sound made by the Nonsuch 4s in this way with any other boxes on the market. This simple test will dramatically effect your views on what is neutral and what has character. I'm happy to arrange this test for anyone who wants to visit me and bring their boxes with them.
.

hehehe


So we're all cordially invited to come along and sing into your empty speaker cabinets

hehehe the image that creates is hilarious!

anyone up for being part of a groovehandle barber shop trio doing ''blue moon'' ?

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by penance
WM, i know i probably shouldnt ask
but why is the speaker cable blanked out in your piccy of the speakers?

Adam ?, my Turbo'd, Nitrious 1385 ZZr salutes you sir, for a decent choice in 2 wheeled transport
The cables have a reflective mesh jacket on them, and it reacted with the flash I reckon, no they've not radio active (well I ain't started glowing yet )

 

[wadia-miester]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by bottleneck
hehehe


So we're all cordially invited to come along and sing into your empty speaker cabinets

hehehe the image that creates is hilarious!

anyone up for being part of a groovehandle barber shop trio doing ''blue moon'' ?

Chris, Bagsy I do the bass harmonies :lol: :lol: :lol: and Lilolee can do the thigh slaps

 

[7_V]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by bottleneck
So we're all cordially invited to come along and sing into your empty speaker cabinets

hehehe the image that creates is hilarious!

Hey, let me tell you I've sung into some pretty well known speakers in my time. The guys that put the finish on my cabinets also do some work for B & W and AudioNote. I've sung into them all.

I think that many conventional speaker companies would tell you that the internal standing waves don't matter as they're damped out anyway. I like to use the mimimum possible damping. Damping robs the life from the speakers.

Does anyone remember when Jimmy Hughes (Hi-Fi Answers) went through a stage of ripping all the damping, padding and stuffing out of his speakers? He was much criticized but I always thought he had a point.

DON'T try this at home.

Steve
PS: If we do a Barber's Shop trio/quartet, do I have to supply a cabinet for everyone? We'd better rule out choirs.

 

[wadia-miester]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by 7_V

I think that many conventional speaker companies would tell you that the internal standing waves don't matter as they're damped out anyway. I like to use the mimimum possible damping. Damping robs the life from the speakers.

Steve
PS: If we do a Barber's Shop trio/quartet, do I have to supply a cabinet for everyone? We'd better rule out choirs.

Steve so a direct corralation between thickiness and material quality/type of damping substance, will have the effect of 'restricting' of the 'Articulation of the drivers' during their working stoke 'so to speak' and the internal cabinet dimentions and shaping, in essence a 'Trade off'/ compromise, for speed and dynamics for control yes?
Or is the creation of a better internal anti resonace chamber, and minimialistic damping a better solution do you feel ?
whatabout the half way house outboard x/overs?, or even fully active x/overs? WM

 

[penance]

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Adam ?, my Turbo'd, Nitrious 1385 ZZr salutes you sir, for a decent choice in 2 wheeled transport
The cables have a reflective mesh jacket on them, and it reacted with the flash I reckon, no they've not radio active (well I ain't started glowing yet )

Andy!, Adam is close

once a Kawasaki man always a Kawasaki man
Love it, but it needs a damn good fettling,
Fancy a ride-out then? Ill stop to let you catch up

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by penance
Andy!, Adam is close

once a Kawasaki man always a Kawasaki man
Love it, but it needs a damn good fettling,
Fancy a ride-out then? Ill stop to let you catch up

Andy, I proberbly would need too these days mate, Old fart now, however Paul lewis use to find things rather difficult at some points in his early career I do blast down to bristol now and again from J11 to 3 on M32 16 mins on a bad day
Fastest time I ever clocked [email protected] 1/4 at the pod 1986, pump piss and GTX no wheelie bars either
Now then what about big bore kit for the ZX12? WM

 

[penance]

Ive not done much strip stuff meself, but a shop i worked in years back was affiliated with the guy who was winning the super twins at the time. Ben something, around '91 - '92
Im turning into an old fart aswell, dont bounce to well these days and that plastic is way to damn expensive (longs for my old Z650 )
Thats a damn good time mate, eyes out back of head?
Wish it was a ZX12, one of the last ZXR750 models but it kinda suits me, i want to do some work on it (namely ZX9 lump shoehorned in) but for some reason i seem to keep throwing my cash at these hifi things


sorry for thread hijack

 

[7_V]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dance of the Seven Veils

Originally posted by wadia-miester
Steve so a direct corralation between thickiness and material quality/type of damping substance, will have the effect of 'restricting' of the 'Articulation of the drivers' during their working stoke 'so to speak' and the internal cabinet dimentions and shaping, in essence a 'Trade off'/ compromise, for speed and dynamics for control yes?
Or is the creation of a better internal anti resonace chamber, and minimialistic damping a better solution do you feel ?
whatabout the half way house outboard x/overs?, or even fully active x/overs? WM

I think you already know what I would say to that, you old dog.

You can always add damping material. I use some myself. However, there's no doubt in my mind that creating a better non-resonant enclosure to start with is the right approach. The aim is to achieve an open baffle type sound but without the problems with the rear emissions.

I don't think that outboard crossovers offer much improvement. The active approach is generally better, although you can still get phase difficulties at the crossover point. Also, you can't get round the fact that the sonic qualities (timbre and dispersion) of the bass driver are generally different to those of the tweeter. If the crossover point is low enough - say 100Hz - this probably doesn't matter.

Steve

 

[Alex S]

Don't know much about the technology but I went round to Steve's and had a listen. I was very impressed and think the 7Vs excel in most of the vital areas: good PR&T, very open and natural sounding - bringing very little character or colouration of their own to the party. I played some Bozzio and they played his Tom Toms to a T - better than nearly all other speakers I've heard, and this on the end of a relatively modest system. I thought the integration was excellent and the bass was very controlled. Sound did appear a little right-field at times and another pair of subs would have helped even more.

The 7Vs were fantastic on choral, excelling on voices in general. A piano sounded like a piano, a violin like a violin, its amazing how many speakers mess up the basics. Overall they sounded very sweet, and I mean sweet delicious not sweet anodine.

Downsides? A couple. Lacked a little drive and dynamic range on some material - put this down to electronics as much as anything. Sweet spot issues would be a problem for me since I have to move about occasionally and do some work. Could they go loud enough in my big, by UK standards very big, listening room? Don't know.

One problem could be price. There's some serious competition at the 7K and upwards level. But anyone looking for a serious speaker with genuine all round capability would be very silly not to give these a good listen.

Alex

PS Many modern valve amps excel in the PRAT department

 

[HenryT]

Here's one set of neutral ears that its owner would be quite happy to be lend out for the day if there were a panel test (pun not intended ) round at Robbo's.

Certainly for me, the 1SC are the mini monitors to beat at the price (and then some) when it comes to mid-range quality. I'd be quite happy to admit that the first time I heard them on the end of Robbo's DPA rig, I went home feeling that I'd spent a lot more on my speakers and not even gained a comparable result. Turned out that my speakers at home were just getting fed a sh!te signal and a quite inadquate one at that.

Think I've managed to claw back some lost ground now with some recent upgrades, certainly been quite beguiled by shock horror some CDs over the past few days - the bass/mid range unit on the Verity Parsifals I own also crossover to the tweeter at a high 5.5Khz (and low pass at 150Hz when used with the optional passive woofer module). Would be interesting to get re-aquainted with the 1SCs and maybe the 7Vs just for contrast, just to get the proportions in perspective here.

 

[Robbo]

Sorry Guys,

There isnt going to be any sound off. I really dont want to get involved in this as it seems to me it would only be to prove a point or otherwise. I feel in no particular need to defend my opinion regarding the proacs. I know they are not perfect and there are areas where I wish they were better (port resonances) but hey I very much doubt I could do better for the £425 I paid for them (stands included).

Henry, you are welcome to come over anytime to re-acquaint yourself with the system. I have made a few of changes since you were last over so it would be interesting to see what you make of it.

Cheers, Robbo