Do we imagine improvemnets?

"You finished your post with 'Just dont say I imagined it' but you've not presented any argument to show that you didn't imagine it."

That was out on its own, as a conclusion not part of the aurgument just a jokey thing
:MILD:

"It's good science that people who expect something often experience it."
Like that was the whole point , if it works one way then it works the other, i didn't say this effect does not happen only that ALL camps must consider this effect.

Jools youre doing the straw man.If all cables are the same of course they will sound the same.No sane person aurgues that point.
But I believe that not all cables are the same , the diffrence mainly that some are better consructed (ie tighter fit on socket and are soldered or crimped in a more more mechanically sound way)than others ,and through a well set up hifi with two speakers in front of you at a distance of at least 2 metres the speakers being roughtly level with your ears that these diffrences are noticable when you sit down to relax and listen to music.

Yes there is a lot of crap written about cables and this sometimes confuses or takes away from the stuff that does work.

"Like Homeopathy it's all bollocks that oddly, works for some people."
As far as i know youre right about that pile of crap.

 

i dont want to get shot down for my views, as they are just that, but i think the whole argument about cables is a waste of time. Sure there will be slight differences between cables (i myself listen through a cheap set of ixos cables for cd player to amp, all the rest are stock) and i cant really tell the difference, although, im not a hifi lover, i love music. Personally, the thought of spending £4500 on speaker cable (nordhost valhalla? I think its that one, for 2m pair) is ridiculous, you'd get much better results changing components for that amount.

Anyway, i think the debating should cease really, if those of you that buy these cables hear a difference, buy them, those of you that dont, stop starting arguments about it.

My 2p

 

But they don't have to. You claim to experience the difference, I don't claim not to experience it I just ask you to demonstrate you're not imagining it.

Paul

 

mutant,
it depends on your perspective.
if you had a 150k system (clearaudio, dcs, boulder, wilson would do it easily) then 4.5 k on cables is peanuts.
alternatively if you had a 1k system (arcam and b&w) then 4.5k on cables would be madness.

of course some here would say that anything other than b&q's finest orange extension cable is silly. whilst others would say that the valhalla isn;t enough, send in the active shielded elephant wang please.

at the end of the day if the guy with the cheque book is happy then no harm, no foul.
cheers


julian

 

Your argument at the beginning is very clear and beautifully lay out. Seems like you enjoy a mental challenge.

Are you familiar with what some of us refer to Blind Testing?

I have posted a thread in another forum because there they seems to have equal amount of people who believe cables do sound different or don't.

For myself I strongly agree with experts that when you wish to decide whether an observation is due to people imagination or not the gold standard test to answer this satisfactorily is by Blind Testing.

One person rises an observation and I am still trying to think if I could come out with any other reasons to interpret it and prove the statement above is incorrect. Would you like to hear about it?

 

I think in this case Spxy is referring to those people who claim that cables do not make a difference because they've never heard a difference, not the more scientifically-minded among us who simply don't see any reason to believe a claim unless it can be demonstrated.

Personally, I have yet to make up my mind. It seems that allmost invariably when I compare two cables, when I listen to the first, and then the second, I almost always hear a difference. Then when I switch back, I realise it was imagined, and that there really is no difference. After extensive back-and-forth listening I almost always come to the conclusion that there may have been a subtle difference, but I'm not certain - and I almost always come away from such experiences with a great sense of mistrust towards my memory.... I've certainly never heard a cable that "blew me away".

But really, I think the most telling point is that (as far as I know?) no one has ever been able to reliably, scientifically demonstrate the audible differences between cables that don't differ significantly in inductance and capacitance. And how long have peddlers been making wild claims about cables? It's certainly been a while. You'd think if there were differences, someone would've been able to prove it by now, surely?

Dunc

P.S. - I consider myself open minded, and if someone wants to show me a cable that blows me away I'd be well up for it.

 

Dont tar everyone with the same brush, I am a professional scientist and on many occasions have heard cables making quite a worthwhile difference. IMO, you do need to have a good quality transparent system though to make it worthwhile bothering.

This is my hobby, not my profession, so I dont particularly feel like conducting investigations as to why this is the case. I just use my ears and enjoy the music.

 

I do "blind tests" every time I am choosing cables or other components... :MILD:

I sit the missus on the sweet spot and do the switching without her knowing what is playing, if she knew, she would always pick the ship ones, I wonder why...

Sometimes I "imagine" I hear differences, but she doesnt, other times she hears them too, more or less significant, isnt this method valid...

Of course sometimes I still buy things she didnt hear a difference, but then, it is MY hobby... :JPS:

 

Of course we imagine things. Almost everything we do can sometimes have a positive effect. This can be even more influenced by whether or not we want to hear a difference. The best way to try, is to perform a tweek on a system, wait until the ears have re-adjusted to the "new" sound, then remove the tweek. If it sounds worse, then it should be obvious. Then again, we could imagine that it sounds worse because we've just removed it. Perhaps the best thing to do is to get your bird to remove said tweek while your not looking. If it really makes a difference, you should notice.

Probably

 

Ive heard cables (all types) make no difference, sometimes make a difference, sometimes make a difference and an improvement (to my ears).

Ive had less luck (alright no luck yet) with power cables in my own system, but I might one day

Interconnects and speaker cables Ive heard differences that were on some occasions an improvement - in my system and others.

Whether the audible difference (and to my ears improvement) was due to non-standard capacitance or inductance becomes irrelevant to me at that point in time....

If it sounds better (after careful comparison) it is better.

.. are capacitors, resistors etc in the actual components not chosen due to their sonic effect rather than their on-paper characteristics?... do we rush out and change them ??!


Questions like..

1) Is the COST of this item going to provide a GREATER benefit to my system than spending it elsewhere?
2) Will the 'improvement' I heard stay true with future component changes?
3) Is the COST of the item fair and reasonable considering its content? Can I DIY it?

Are different kettles of fish to me...

Ive found very often that purchasing cables of any type falls over at question 1 above... careful buying/selling of components has proved more fruitful to me in getting the sound I want.

 

Yes this was my experience with the new Naim 'burndy' cable which connects the power supply (XPS) to the CD player head unit. There has been some excitement on the Naim forum about this new £250 cable, and how it is supposed to improve the CDP. One or two of the mags have said it does - I think MC said 'a clear 25%' or somesuch - and my hi-fi dealer recently brought one over 'for evaluation'.

Well we sat there, played a track, then put in the new wunderburndy, played the track again, put the old crappyburndy back in played the track again...no difference at all according to Darren (who was presumably on a mission to flog it to me). I thought it was a bit better when it was in, but going back to the original confirmed that it wasn't.

It is very easy to listen with our eyes/wallets. Having shelled out the cash, it's almost impossible to admit that the new thing isn't better.