NAS & Heed Orbit

[Uncle Ants]

I know that Tom could not fit the new pivot to my old Mentor, and that the new Space has a Carbon fibre armtube...

Hmm. Mine is an older aluminium armed Space. It would seem that it isn't retrofittable to all the older arms.

Thanks for the figures on effective mass. Of course I'm not going to be any the wiser really, as its a different arm again.

I had a bit of a nightmare with my old (high compliance) Shure V15VxMR on it but no trouble with my current Denon (lower compliance), so I guess for want of figures - medium to high mass seems right.

 

[Shuggie]

I can recommend the Wave Mechanic PSU for use with the Spacedeck. It has a very subtle effect, but one that makes musicians and instruments simply more 'real'. It's quite hard to explain, and it's most definitely not 'hifi' but well worth it. There is clearly something about the design of the WM that addresses something other than speed stability (which is fine without a posh PSU). I've no experience with other PSUs, so I can't comment on the Heed or Project..

The Heavy kit sounds good in theory, but my Spacedeck is already hugely improved (dynamics, clarity) by using a basic Ringmat, so I doubt that the Heavy kit can actually deliver much more. My dealer says (and I believe him) that the Hyperspace represents a monumental leap in sound quality over the Spacedeck, so I firmly believe that the bearing is the most critical component in the deck. The Hyperspace is designed to benefit from the graphite - the Spacedeck is not. All this has, in effect, been confirmed to me by NA themselves (who clearly do not pursue sales above honesty).

I hope this helps - the Wave Mechanic is worth £500.

Cheers

S

 

[The Devil]

Where an LP12 or a Gyro (both of which I've owned) will show a slight lightening and darkening of pitch on a hard-struck piano note, the NAS hardly budges at all. The Orbit seems to have reinforced this quality even further.

What a load of bollocks. You think a stylus can slow a nine pound platter enough to hear the effect? You are dreaming.

 

[TonyL]

Hmm. Mine is an older aluminium armed Space. It would seem that it isn't retrofittable to all the older arms.

I'd check with NA themselves, I'm sure I read somewhere of someone who had the upgrade done to an earlier arm.

What a load of bollocks. You think a stylus can slow a nine pound platter enough to hear the effect? You are dreaming.

The LP12 is a series of springs, there is a degree of rotational movement by design, so plenty that could be measured to back up the ear's finding that the Nottingham decks are clearly superior at portraying pitch.

Tony.

 

[The Devil]

The armboard is connected to the subchassis, Tony. If one rotates, so does the other.

Hard-stuck notes do vary in pitch, with time, as discussed in "Notes about Notes" last year on pfm.

 

[Anex]

The Heavy kit sounds good in theory, but my Spacedeck is already hugely improved (dynamics, clarity) by using a basic Ringmat, so I doubt that the Heavy kit can actually deliver much more.

I'd listen to the heavy kit before making that decision.
Audio Republic in Leeds will tell you otherwise re the hyperspace thing, apparantly the guy can't sell a hyperspace with a clear concience after hearing the heavy hyper and psu. I know which one I'd buy.

The wave mech (and other psus) regenerates the 50Hz signal feeding one with fewer harmonics to the TT so its a cleaner signal.
I think the wave mech and heed are analogue devices and the project is digital. I wonder what difference that makes?

 

[Gromit]

What a load of bollocks. You think a stylus can slow a nine pound platter enough to hear the effect? You are dreaming.

If you've got perfect pitch (or extremely good relative pitch) you can hear it I assure you so no, it's not 'bollocks' as you so eloquently describe it. Some folk are more sensitive to pitch variation than others that's all - something I come across every single day of my working life.

The NAS just has great speed & pitch stability, more than any other turntable I've owned, LP12 included.

 

[The Devil]

I agree that hard-struck piano notes vary in pitch - this is audible on CD as well as vinyl. It's because the string is stretched slightly more at the start of the note.

The LP12 also has great speed & pitch stability - one of the few things about hi-fi which actually can be, and has been, measured.

 

[TonyL]

The armboard is connected to the subchassis, Tony. If one rotates, so does the other.

Exactly ââ'¬â€œ there is a degree of play / spring present that is simply not there in a non-subchassis 'rigid' deck like the NA.

Tony.

 

[The Devil]

Huh? The relative position of arm pillar to record is constant. Put the entire NA on springs, and you have the same (similar) arrangement as an LP12.

Are you saying that a piano note will bend the arm pillar ever so slightly?

 

[TonyL]

Put the entire NA on springs, and you have the same (similar) arrangement as an LP12.

This is the point ââ'¬â€œ the NAS is not on springs.

Are you saying that a piano note will bend the arm pillar ever so slightly?

Not 'bend' but there is a rotational movement available that is simply not present in a rigid deck. Take hold of the headshell of your arm; there is a very easy forward / back / rotational movement available relative to the plinth as the deck floats on springs. Do this to my deck and the arm will snap off! It is totally rigid.

A theory put forward by Roksan in the early 80s is that the subchassis assembly of a floating subchassis deck is never still enough to accurately transcribe a record, i.e. there is always movement due to the various forces involved. IMHO this POV is far too extreme, the LP12 is after all a great deck. It is however, like everything I have ever come across in audio, not perfect, and the key area the LP12 is less perfect to decks like the NAS is in pitch. This is very clear if you have ever had a dem or owned the two decks. There might be something to Roksan's theory after all.

I have noticed, as a result of building a very substantial number of Linns over the years, that the platter assemblies are often not perfectly balanced. As the LP12 has it's centre of gravity very, very high (it spends all day trying to fall off it's springs), the slightest inaccuracy in platter balance will make it very, very slightly oscillate as the platter rotates. Creep up to a spinning LP12 and look very closely at the arm board relative to the plinth, in 9 out of 10 decks you will see a minute movement. I'm talking a fraction of a mm here, but you will often see this gap 'breath' as the deck rotates. This can not be good for pitch, and is another area where a deck that simply can't do this may win in comparison.

Tony.

 

[The Devil]

Well, it's an interesting theory, but the fact that both of Gromit's previous decks (LP12 and Gyrodeck) allowed him to hear the natural modulation of a forte piano note, suggests that both these decks showed superior pitch stability to the NA.

If I get hold of the ARO headshell, and start fooling with it, it'll come off the deck altogether!

 

[TonyL]

Well, it's an interesting theory, but the fact that both of Gromit's previous decks (LP12 and Gyrodeck) allowed him to hear the natural modulation of a forte piano note, suggests that both these decks showed superior pitch stability to the NA.

I'm sure you are misinterpreting what Gromit said ââ'¬â€œ to my ears the NA does piano noticeably better than any other deck I've so far head. I grew up in a house with grand piano in it so I am conscious of the extent most audio systems fail to get the gist of the instrument. It still amazes me how my father managed to get a piano that big into a room that small - it was a room about the size of a grand piano and a chair that had a grand piano and a chair in it.

Tony.

 

[Gromit]

Tell you what - when I get into work tomorrow morning I'll go and have a tinkle on the Bosendorfer we've got sat in the main rehearsal room, after which I'll report my findings.

A firmly-struck piano note (a 13th either side of middle C is the best as it corresponds to a point where the human hear is at its most perceptive) will harden in tone, from which point it will recover at an even rate as the note decays. All I can say, in total honesty, is that the Spacedeck gets nearer to this than any other TT I've owned. I'm not trying to be clever, just making an observation from my own experience.

 

[darrylfunk]

gromit

i think that will be interesting but please don't think the nas decks are more pitch accurate than some other decks and that the fact they are high mass means they suffer from different problems from the low mass decks around in terms of colouration every deck has positives and negatives. i just pissed of a hyperspace owner by playing them my deck but i liked what that did on certain tracks but not enough to swap.
the xerxes and it's big brothers seem in my experience to be the ultimate in pitch accuracy but not neccesarily the best sonics.

 

[Uncle Ants]

I'd check with NA themselves, I'm sure I read somewhere of someone who had the upgrade done to an earlier arm.

Well yes I had it done to my aluminium tubed space. I meant that if it can't be done to a Mentor, but can to an older Space, then it can be done to some but not others (and yes the implication is to ask NAS).