Records recently heard

[bat]

Perhaps Bach should be modernized after all. The musical experience occurs in the brain. Our brains differ from 18th century brains, because of enormous cultural, technological and environmental differences. Therefore, Bach's music should be played with 21th century instruments for 21th century brains, not with 18th century instruments! Although invented early in 20th century, theremin might be ideal...

 

[Active Hiatus]

By that logic we should only listen to 21st Century music. No, I think Bach works best when it's played with an eye on period practice but with modern style.

 

[bat]

For theremin lovers (also superb cover art):

Imagine all those fantastic alien instruments in outer space, and Bach played with them...

 

[tones]

By that logic we should only listen to 21st Century music.

You mean, someone has actually written some worthy of the name?

 

[pe-zulu]

Perhaps Bach should be modernized after all. The musical experience occurs in the brain. Our brains differ from 18th century brains, because of enormous cultural, technological and environmental differences. Therefore, Bach's music should be played with 21th century instruments for 21th century brains, not with 18th century instruments! Although invented early in 20th century, theremin might be ideal...

And similarily Shakespeares dramas should be rewritten for modern brains and Rembrandt paintings repainted for modern eyes??

 

[pe-zulu]

but in general it seems to me that James does no violence to the spirit of the music.

This is of course important, but still the anachronismus must be evident.

 

[tones]

This is of course important, but still the anachronismus must be evident.

It probably reflects my lack of knowledge, but to me, not really. It is simply great music played in a different way. What would Jean-Philippe Rameau thought? As many of the great composers were adventurous in their time, I suspect he would have quite enjoyed it. We know that Bach loved to extemporise on the organ and was much in demand for his skills at pushing new instruments to their limits. Imagine ol' J.S. on a James-type instrument!

 

[bat]

And similarily Shakespeares dramas should be rewritten for modern brains and Rembrandt paintings repainted for modern eyes??

Yes! No one reads Shakespeare nowadays. No one has Rembrandts on their walls. That's because they haven't been updated yet.

 

[Active Hiatus]

As it's 11/11 today I'm listening to Britten's War Requiem. One of the great works of the 20th Century. The original Britten recording on Decca

 

[pe-zulu]

We know that Bach loved to extemporise on the organ and was much in demand for his skills at pushing new instruments to their limits. Imagine ol' J.S. on a James-type instrument!

Have you ever tried to play a baroque type pipe organ? If you have, this might convince you that Bachs organ music is created with this medium in mind. Just as Beethovens piano sonatas are created with a stringed instrument with hammer action in mind. Or perhaps you would like them played on electric piano as well.

Even if the synth player or electric piano player is a most musically gifted artist I can't but regard efforts like these as curiosities.

 

[pe-zulu]

Perhaps Bach should be modernized after all. The musical experience occurs in the brain. Our brains differ from 18th century brains, because of enormous cultural, technological and environmental differences.

Maybe you are right as to yourself, but it is perfectly possible for me to ignore our age, when I listen to Bach. I have trained my ear and my mind by listening intensively and extensively to music from the middle age and renaissance to be able to approach Bach so to say from behind. And I never listened to much 20th century music.

 

[tones]

Have you ever tried to play a baroque type pipe organ?

Alas, playing an instrument of any kind is one of the many abilities I lack.

If you have, this might convince you that Bachs organ music is created with this medium in mind. Just as Beethovens piano sonatas are created with a stringed instrument with hammer action in mind.

Of course, that was what was available to them.

Or perhaps you would like them played on electric piano as well.

That wouldn't bother me at all if it sounded good and the music was well served by it.

Even if the synth player or electric piano player is a most musically gifted artist I can't but regard efforts like these as curiosities.

There we agree to disagree. I like the original instruments, but I've no objection to hearing the music on others. People used to complain all the time about Maurice André's transcriptions from other instruments, because of the relatively poor trumpet repertoire, but I always enjoyed them.

 

[Active Hiatus]

I have an interesting arrangment of Beethoven's Symphony no 2 for Piano, Violin & Cello which he did himself. My point is although Beethoven (and perhaps to a lesser extent) Bach wrote for the instruments they had at the time, sometimes specifically for the soundscapes those instruments created, they weren't adverse to playing with the music. Another fine period piece is Czerny's Brillante Fantasie for Horn and Fortepiano. A work notable for being made of variations from numerous Schubert songs. Strangely it's a work written specifically for natural horn in a time when valved instruments were fast becoming the norm, because Czerny wanted a sound that on the natural horn could produce. So in this instance we have a composer freely adapting a friends work while fixing rigid restrictions on how it should sound.

HIP is good but it shouldn't be a strait jacket.

 

[bat]

Maybe you are right as to yourself, but it is perfectly possible for me to ignore our age, when I listen to Bach. I have trained my ear and my mind by listening intensively and extensively to music from the middle age and renaissance to be able to approach Bach so to say from behind. And I never listened to much 20th century music.

Yes, but with ingenious modernization Bach's music would appeal to more people. There is some dead wood in many works of his. It is certainly possible to cut out the dead wood - improve some themes. You know, add new bold ideas, and elaborate old ones. Even mix separate compositions to make exciting new ones. Bach did that himself. Or we could add new pedal parts to harpsichord suites to create new organ music.

Of course, that would be no job for the uninitiated. Only the best possible experts, such as you and I, should be allowed to modify Bach's compositions, to ensure that the changes are made with the best possible taste.

 

[Active Hiatus]

and Bach freely did this with other's works, just look at the Vivaldi concetos he re-wrote for organ

 

[bat]

Yeah, you got my point. We could mix Bach and Vivaldi with computer. Not very HIP approach but imagine what possibilities. With computer we could even develop completely new virtual instruments and transcribe Bach's music for those yet unheard-of mediums. Or play whole compositions backwards and hear hidden messages that Bach hid in his works. I am sure the old wig would approve!

 

[pe-zulu]

Or play whole compositions backwards and hear hidden messages that Bach hid in his works. I am sure the old wig would approve!

Indeed I own a recording made by an rather unknown german organist playing the Toccata d-minor BWV 565 backwards on a pipe organ as an experiment. It is listenable, but without the inner coherence of the piece played forwards.

 

[pe-zulu]

Yes, but with ingenious modernization Bach's music would appeal to more people. There is some dead wood in many works of his.

Do you really think so, I don't.

 

[pe-zulu]

My point is although Beethoven (and perhaps to a lesser extent) Bach wrote for the instruments they had at the time, sometimes specifically for the soundscapes those instruments created, they weren't adverse to playing with the music.

Of course they wrote for the instruments which were at their disposal. My point is, that the character and style of their music is governed by the tecnical and musical possibilities of these instruments (as well as the predominant musical style of their time). If they had had access to electronic instruments, they would had known to use the technical possibilities of these instruments and composed quite otherwise if they wanted to. Bach was a virtuoso upon pipe organ, harpsichord, violin and many other acoustical instruments. If you ever have played one of these instruments, you will know, that the synthetized imitated sound of these instruments isn't but a poor substitute for the real thing, not only as to sound but even more as to touch, and I am fully convinced that Bach with his approach to musical instruments would have rejected the synthetizer. It's completely alien to his soundworld and musical style. It's a pity, that it is "necessary" to transform Bachs music into an electronic world to make him eatable for the culturally limitated modern man. Notice that I don't reject the synthetizer as such. But I think it has its own (justified) repertoire, just as the pipe organ has its own repertoire.

 

[pe-zulu]

There we agree to disagree. I like the original instruments, but I've no objection to hearing the music on others. People used to complain all the time about Maurice André's transcriptions from other instruments, because of the relatively poor trumpet repertoire, but I always enjoyed them.

Neither do I have serious objections to Andrés arrangements of various concerts for other instruments, which (do I think )are made in the style of the composers and excecuted musically and flawless in every respect. And I think that Bach and others wouldn't reject André and his trumpet if they had heard it.

Even if it seems that Bach was positively uninterested in the early Hammerklavier, I find it possible to play his harpsichord music in a stylish way on modern piano, - well, in fact someone sometimes succeeds. But electronical sound production is essentially different from acoustical sound production, and totally alien to Bachs way of thinking, and for that reason alien to his music too.