[Review] phonostage comparison

Yes Briz, replacing the complete output section with that method may indeed bring dividends,, having heard a slightly different variant recently I can say you maybe heading well in ther right direction, along with a never-connected super reg'd psu, you may well be on a winner. Wm

 

wna

WadiaMeister,

Hi - which variations of the wna have you tried? The NC system is quite expensive and it's not clear a hybrin NC/SR would outperform a straight SR. Can you elaborate?

Nick.

 

Nick,

The n/c is simply the most effective method of Ac decoupling I've come across (IN audio), it effectively 'switches' between 2 banks of caps, so while one is charging the other is open to the board.
You can run AC/AC or Ac<>Dc if you wish with them
S/R come in many forms, we have our own versions.
The s/r will only generate a controlled stable voltage (great I know) however the N/c is a stunning ultra clean and stable psu, couple that with even a basic S/r and you have the basis for getting some quality sounds (my personal view)
Personally I only run s/r's on their own in aftermarket applications where space is at a premium. (or you run a big box like a Wadia or similar)
The output stage replacement modules (which I've heard in some phono stages is quite something) I'll be fitting some to a new Wadia project I'm working on in the next 2 weeks (just waiting for boards) so I'll keep you posted. Wm

 

Sr

Thanks!

Very interesting! But with the SR isnt the noise / performance limit the opamp itself and the reference source only as it effectively bootstraps itself? I cant see how the NC can improve matters. Can you provide a bit more detail about this and the output modules?

I would love an opamp replacement module based on jung composite or totally discrete multiloop design...

Nick.

 

Depends on the quality and construction of the S/R to a large degree and where you mount it and your supply (imho). Its a not a juice polisher just a decent stable reg (essential I grant you). Have you tried the 8610's or 8065's, far far faster and quieter than any of the ones your stated. a good 1/2 way house.
Having run more than a few curcuits with and with N/c's and S/r's, I do both without hesistation
Now what about combining them on the same board and miniturising them down, now that would be quite a coup
Total discrete multiloop design I've heard, very impressive it was too (strangely enough in a Diablo), multitude of applications as well when its been finailised I suspect. Keep us posted on your progress

 

sr

Hi,

I didnt like the ad8610. ad8065 isnt stable in my unit. I hope to try it smt mount on a composite board. LM6171 is faster than ad8065 - its 3600 V/s slew!

Are you connected with NC or michell / trichord so to speak? I would of course use a good supply with monolithic reg to feed the SR. Would NC add anything to that? Can you tell me a bit more about the comparisons you have done? I have heard the diablo - it sounds good. Any further info on discrete multiloop opamp? Have you compared with composite or monolithic? If so what were the benefits?

Regards,

Nick.

 

Nick,

I don't work for any of the names your speak of, though Graham (Trichord) and myself have the odd idea on occations!!
It is faster, however its twice as noisy as the other 2 and I don't feel its sounds as good (at least to these ears lol) in the applications I've used them in, did interesting things to the Wadias (LOL)
I could go into great detail Nick, however sorry them's R & D time and burnt finger secrets !!!! sorry. Though I don't just finish with a s/r either!
The only problem for potential users of the 8610/8065 is the input voltages +/13.5 so some re-calcing of the regs involved, prefect time for a 'chased super reg'
Not so with the regs your using. wider voltage tolerence.
Its all a case of seeing 'how' the mods fit in with your particular applictaions.
I can remember once fitting a 150va super regd n/c supply to the 5v rail of a evo 4, Quite stark turn of events, turned it into a Levinson, twas most disturbing T.

 

well more phonostages to come, I am on a roll and buying them at good prices/trials.

Rotel rq 970
sugden masterclass phono...wowee
slee era V to come, too!!
mf x-lp

rotel has arrived, hmm interesting, its much more laid back than the dynavcector, that thing is painful, its so damn revealing its scary, and seriously good, incredible.
the rotel is superb inside, ad744 and black gates galore, it has a nice liquidity more than the dv, more musical, the dv is more stark, but its so laid back, it sounds lacking in detail, its all there but just reticent, and indistinct, its nice bass, v elastic and more tangible/bloomy/shapely, the dv is tighter and faster perhaps like valve v tranny bass, but it makes the dv sound astonishing.

more to come....watch this space...

interesting people are saying the groove types are bright, I have heard 2 other different people say that too.the dv is brighter imo than the groove type. incredibly so, this thing is master tape

 

Wna

Hi,

In my phono I just didnt like the ad8610. It just didnt sound right. I look forward to trying the ad8065 though!

I dont have SRs yet just thinking about a few concepts. I use lm6181 and lm6171 in the phono and pre signal path currently, with a non-sr but high quality PSU. I had also thought of using nested SR.

Do you know of any commerically available SR or discrete opamp modules? Obviously I already know of the ALW and peranders boards. Obviosuly I dont want to infringe your IPR but what public domain info is there? I am prepared to consider SR with NC or anything else if it gets results. Same for the discrete modules. Is your company producing these kind of units? How much do you think the diablo gains over its opamp based predecessors through disctrete opamps and what is the current psu arrangement in the diablo do you know?

Regards,

Nick.

 

I believe Audiocon now make seriously uprated S/R's for about £90 and they can handle some current too, Andy W's are good but they are current limited. though most applications they are more than adiquate especially if you pre reg em'
They also produce op-amp modules, as do LC audio.
The items we use are not commerical available yet, its serious niche market
Andy is a nice guy and I'm sure can go into some detail on this for you.
The Diablo is a very natural and analogue sounding phono, the development of this unit you will need to speak to Graham about personally.
I've heard both versions and other 'issues' too, the scope for potential is quite vast.
Hope that helps T.

 

Wna

I have spoken to andy previously. LCaudio make monlithic opamp modules. I am looking for discrete. Do you know of any? What items will you produce and when will they be commercially available? Roughly speaking.

I am very interested in your NC+SR+something else design ;-) I am eagerly prepared to pay plus agree to legally binding confidentiality! Where does it stand at the moment exactly?

 

Nick,

Your a very keen person sir!!!, remember all good things comes to those that wait.
May I kindly suggest that you email the works site with your questions, along with your specific item you wish for attention, and any schematics you can send, then we may be able to entertain them. T.

 

Wna

Lets just say I am dedicated to my art. Who shall I mark the email FAO for?

Do you have an web link for audiocon?

 

Nick,

http://www.audiocom-uk.com/store/product.asp?P_ID=131

FAO Tony

 

can I have my thread back please

 

Hi,

interesting stuff.

Can you supply a few details Ian.

What equipment are you using to test these phono stages?(Turntable arm cartridge amp speakers.)

Have you adjusted any of the loading settings of the phono stages?


SCIDB

 

hiya Dean.

Its a fairly basic setup, but reveals things well.

I have a nad533, which is about to be changed, it has a fully modded origin live arm, most suspeded decks are too much hassle for me, and I like an easy life, I tried a michell gyro, but it just sounded robotic and mechanical, perhaps a longer listen would've revealed strenghts, but I pick up on tonality quickly, and reject anything I dislike.

Cartridge is a ortofon mc15II, a very very neutral fast performer indeed. I have an atoc-9 arriving shortly picked up new from the US for a superb price.

I haven't actually adjusted loading, I am running the dynavector with its phonoenhancer setting.

The Sudgen has arrived, this thing is a disappoinment, not much more to be said, it is way inferior to the dynavector, so its going back asap, I am not even bothering to play, its very laid back, a great way I heard the sound described is as though its the band had taken a dose of valium before playing, perfectly. Its very gentle, laid back, not as clear. I heard the masterclass cd, too and that was a bit similar in respect that they seem to suit classical music well, but are variable on other more rocky things.
So the official verdict imho is sudgen is largely suited if you are a classical lover.

I am running 3 tracks that I like thro them, stings we work the black seam, russians, and bourbon street, all incredibly atmospheric.

I have decided to sell on the dynavector so its in the classifieds.
The slee has arrived and its my personal preference, its only mm, the dv has both, and I prefer the voicing slightly, its more mid forward, whereas the dv is very much rhythm and prat, and serious slam, but I just like what the slee does slightly better.
On a rating tho I would give them both equal. And tha't some complement for the slee, as the dv is superb.

mind you, I am using the slee with a £1500 ortofon t3000 silver transformer, so that may have somehting to do with it.

only the mf to go, but not in the same league I don't think.

sorry, amp and speakers.

I have fallen out a bit with valve amps, but am using:

dynavox el34 ultralinear push pull, pretty good for the cash.

speakers are either proac tablette 50 sigs or ipl transmission lines.

I will sum them all up for clarity after the mf arrives.I have the mf kw phonostage on my wants list one day, but that will have to wait a fair while yet.

 

summary, to be amended:

Bottlehead seduction

Does exactly what I like, soundstage galore and depth, rich instrument tone, bass a bit fuller than a solid state and slower, but the incredible live feel makes this just about the best valve phonostage I have heard. needs careful building to avoid hums.
microphonic too. Better than my resident audio innovations p2 in every respect which is saying something.
uses 2 ecc88 with passive riaa in between and transistors as loads for the valves instead of the usual resistors, recommended but potential problems in ownership if you like an easy life.

Tom Evans microgroove plus:

bass rolled off, birghter up top, clinical voicing, as in not really emotional, great sax tones, astonishingly quiet backgrounds

Ming da mc767:

Picks up noise when amps vol is turned up, laid back, bit indistinct, you can do better than this one.

Rotel 970:

laid back superb internal build, bass elastic and musical, follows a tune, again can do better but quiet in use and a good intro phonostage.

Dynavector p-75

Astonishingly master tape quality, almost uncannily neutral, bass and timing is its strong point, thwack galore, crisp drums, midrange sllightly more lean and clean, very quiet in use, mm and mc makes this a bargain.
about the best phonostage I have heard.

slee era V

more mid forward than the dv, bass sllightly less, I like the voicing tho', easy to set up and use. mm only

Sugden masterclass

Disapppointing for the new price, laid back relaxed voicing, inferior to the dv by a long shot, mm and mc, nice build tho

 

phono

I agree with your comments on the MG.

The WNA keeps all of its strengths and adds a few of its own but dispenses with its weaknesses (at least it does after all the mods I have made!)

Nick

 

Thanks Lt... very useful review. Where did you get the Ortofon step-up transformer from?

JJ