the bmw 1 series

That is true for moderate understeer dev, but the A4's understeer was anything but moderate. I drove it on motorways where it tramlined, A roads where it was very very reluctant to change direction, etc... It felt as though it was working against you rather than with you. My car is relatively neutral, and feels much more as though it is working with you, but it is FWD so understeer will be the end result if you push too hard... I've never got it to that point, but easily got there with the Audi, without driving in an inappropriate manner.
 
My car has at least 230 lb ft of torque, so understeer can be a problem with that with the traction control switched off, due to its relatively soft suspension which upsets the balance of a car, particularly in the rain. At higher speeds though its not an issue.
 
Dev said:
I actually worry when people complain about understeer on public roads. Unless one drives at insane speeds, it shouldn't really be an issue. I can understand how frustrating it can be on a race track, but on public roads surely it helps to stabilise the car.
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Funny you should say that because I've often thought that if you need a car to oversteer then you're driving too fast and aren't really a very good driver. The only reason I can think of why someone would want to deliberately oversteer is that the've gone in to the corner too fast and are about to run off the road.

Having said that, I don't see the "safety" in understeer either. Why would any one want a car to not be able to turn tightly enough to get around a corner?? I suppose it is one way of keeping peoples speeds down, if your average car actually handled well enough to go around corners at the kind of speeds they could if they didn't have built in understeer, (yes it's perfectly possible to have front wheel drive that doesn't understeer - understeer on road cars is deliberate), then I'm sure the accident statistics would be much worse than they are now.

GTM
 
Issac the new A4 is way better, steering still a bit lifeless compared to equivelant 3 series but not as far off the 3 series as the scribes would have you believe, I have the avant 130 TDi sport, and it covers ground very well indeed, only understeers if you are a hooligan, and changes direction pretty sharpish, even braking deep into corner does not upset it too much, and the torque does not cause too much understeer, although mine has 17" 235/45 tyres, so there is an abundance of grip, and doesn't tramline, although it did when I got it but trye pressurs were way off, FWIW our cooper S tramlines pretty badly but has the 17" runflats, instant feelsome steering BTW, those that think front drivers all have lifeless steering should try PUG 205/309 GTI's and the new MINI.
 
GTM for those who don't have much access to track driving then a an empty wet roundabout makes a good skidpan, a friend was once very condascending re me experiencing understeer and lift off oversteer, and arrogantly proclaimed that he has never driven a car to the point were it lost traction, I asked him what he would do in an emergency ie black ice, to which he replied he would crash, i added that had he practised loosing grip in relative safety then he might know what to expect and may be able to save it.
 
Paul,

The most powerful fwd car I've ever driven was the Rover 220 something Turbo. It was wild with oodles of torquesteer, but I suppose I haven't yet driven a badly understeering car in the wet.;)

However, as long as I was sensible and on dry roads, I've never found understeer to be that much of a problem.

Isaac,

Most of the cars I've driven have been fwd but handled OK and I must admit I do prefer the balance of my current car.

GTM,

Most manufacturers would rather build-in slight understeer into their cars than any oversteer because it helps to stabilise the car in bends. Not everyone can handle oversteer. Again, I'm not talking about excessive understeer. The ideal 100% neutral handling car in all circumstances and at all speeds only exists on the same planet as the perfect HiFi :D
 
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Understeer and FWD

Paul

Your understeer will not be improved by making the suspension harder, if anything it may make it worse as there will be less weight transfer. You are also more inclined to cock the inside rear wheel pushing forcing the outside tyres to try and grip more! Race cars get away with it as circuits are incredibly smooth, I've done 70+ circuit days so I think I'm qualified to comment!

Understeer is just a characteristic of all FWD cars with a reasonable amount of power, highlighted by short wheelbases. I have had a FWD early Audi A8 and even with a 260bhp V8, it didn't really understeer.

The best way to kill understeer is to get the suspension camber angles set up (in a mode to kill understeer). This usually results in more negative camber and thus increased tyre wear on the insides of the tread.

Having owned several cars mentioned on this thread, FWD, RWD and AWD, I feel reasonably confident to comment.

I had a Prodrive Modified Impreza a few years ago and that was set up to handle like a go-kart (but had less high speed stability, due to the toe-in changes at the rear). This had absolutely no understeer, (which the standard car did have) and was throughly tested in wet and dry on the road and circuit!

Loads of power is not everything either, I have been fortunate enough to own a (reliable) TVR Griffith 500 and whilst devestaing in a straight line would be comfortably beaten around a circuit by the Impreza. In fact I took my Impreza to several TVR track days and was never passed by a V8 TVR (including Cerberas!!), but we were doing lap times at Oulton as quick as Frank Sytner in the D-Type Jag at the Oulton Park Gold Cup. Now I'm nowhere near as good a driver as Frank, but it demstronstates how car technology has moved on.

As in all these things, there is a trade off and a law of dimishing returns (bit like hi-fi!!)

Mr Perceptive
 
i've had heart stoppers in all of the rwd cars i've owned. i span my 200sx in the rain, on a low speed corner, and nearly span my lexus going through a roundabout too fast. the fastest fwd car i had (a peugeot 406 coupe v6) felt like it was welded to the road, the only thing on that was a smidge of torque steer on one particular roundabout which had an uphill entrance and that only happened if you had to stop and then belt it on to it as it was very busy. overall i think i prefer fwd for everyday driving but can see the the attraction of rwd for hairy chested medallion men with small tackle and something to prove.
cheers


julian
 
I've driven a number of FWD and RWD cars. I definately prefer RWD - whilst easier to spin out, they're also heaps more fun. FWD has always seemed incredibly boring to me ... the FWD cars I've driven just don't seem to have any life in them.

If people generally consider FWD to be the nicey (safer?) method ... then how come most of the prestigious brands still use RWD? Is there a reason for this? Or do people just expect prestige cars to be RWD? Perhaps there's an element of snobbery?

I'm genuinley curious. It always seems that people who own FWD cars are very anti RWD, and vice versa. Most opinions I hear tend to be based on what type/brand a particular person owns ... rather than real experience.

I prefer RWD, but that's down to a personal preference for a fun involving drive, rather than a nice safe and easy (and probably better track times) option of FWD. But that's just based on cars I've driven, and personal experience. I've not driven any track days, and the range of cars I've driven has been limited. I don't claim to be an expert :)

Steve
 
Dick Size

Julian

Why does this always come up with fast cars. I just feel very fortunate to have owned a great selection of cars.

My how I must of worried when I got into the TVR Griffith that my dick just shrank before my eyes! Just as well that I have previously done 130,000 miles in a 1.2 Nova so I must have the biggest knob on the planet.

Grow Up Julian

There is something very satisfying about drifting (on the limit just before or just past oversteer) a high powered RWD car through a bend (on a circuit of course!). You just don't get this with FWD or AWD

I've driven a 200SX and a Lexus too but no scary moments, RWD just commands a degree of respect, the Griffith especially so, but that was a great part of the fun of owning it.

Mr Perceptive

PS - Thespirit3, I have no bias either way, I've driven some great handling FWD cars VW Corrado, Honda Integra TypeR, some amazing AWD cars Impreza, Evo6 and loads of RWD cars. There are good and bad cars of each genre, I had a Subaru Justy AWD car as a courtesy car once, the less said the better, the AWD system sapped so much power you had to send it a postcard when you wanted to accelerate!
 
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Steve,

The FWD are (slightly) cheaper and roomier due to lack of transmission tunnel and prop shaft but because they have a heavy forward weight bias they tend to understeer and if they are powerful enough, can also suffer from torque-steer. Luxury car manufacturers generally prefer RWD because the space saving is less of an issue, in fact can be a problem with a large engine say a V12 or even a straight 6. Also RWD do not have any problems with torquesteer.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Paul

Your understeer will not be improved by making the suspension harder, if anything it may make it worse as there will be less weight transfer. You are also more inclined to cock the inside rear wheel pushing forcing the outside tyres to try and grip more! Race cars get away with it as circuits are incredibly smooth, I've done 70+ circuit days so I think I'm qualified to comment!

Understeer is just a characteristic of all FWD cars with a reasonable amount of power, highlighted by short wheelbases. I have had a FWD early Audi A8 and even with a 260bhp V8, it didn't really understeer.

The best way to kill understeer is to get the suspension camber angles set up (in a mode to kill understeer). This usually results in more negative camber and thus increased tyre wear on the insides of the tread.
Click to expand...

Mr Perceptive,

I was not really doing the suspension in order to kill understeer specifically, just improve the handling characteristics of the car. The main problem I have now is low speed traction (which is helped by the traction control in fairness), and a tendency to wallow a bit and dive under hard braking (due to the heavy engine).

There have been several members of briskoda who have had Eibach springs and Koni adjustable dampers fitted to their vRS and they said it improved the handling no end - much more planted, no more diving under braking, improved turn in and responsiveness (their words not mine).

The stock suspension is decent enough, the car has plenty of grip, but a bit of body roll and a bit bouncy if you know what I mean. However, if I do go ahead (and its pretty much inevitable eventually) and get it chipped, then I can well imagine the standard set up struggling to cope with the extra power. We are talking about increasing power from around 145 bhp / 260 lb ft (seems to be around the average rolling road result for stock PD130's) to around 185 bhp / 320 lb ft (which seems to be the average result for remapped PD130 Fabia/Ibiza's).

Nevertheless, I am interested to read about your experiences since you seem to have a fair background with sporty cars.
 
Paul

Your biggest problem will be torque steer with the chipping, not a lot to tame that apart from traction control and less lead in your boots!

The stiffer springs will make it dive less under braking and be less wallowy (is that really a word?).

Are you keeping the wheel/tyre size the same? I would counter against going for larger tyre footprints if you chip/stiffen it it as although traction will be increased in the dry it will become a nightmare in the wet.

I also used to sprint/hillclimb a very significantly modified TVR Taimar (oh God my dick has just shrivelled up again). This was RWD, I increased the tyre size from the original 185 (no low profiles in those days) to bigger rims with 225/50's. It also had only about 2 inches of suspension travel, it was only really used on circuit days and on Sprints/Hillclimbs (Nightmare on the road as it also had only 3 inches of ground clearance!). These used to have next to no grip in the wet as the bigger tyres spread the load (weight), the hard suspension didn't aloow the weight transfer to aid the traction and the loads of power/torque meant that it was a very lairy drive. Great in the dry though.

If your modding a road car, I would get a drive in a trick one if you car (even as a passenger) before you start modifying your own. Get a taste of all weather conditions and don't forget it snows in this country.

Having spent £££££'s on modifying cars in my past I would say that unless you use a respected tuning company (eg Prodrive) save your money and buy a better car in the future.

Mr Perceptive
 
Mr Perceptive,

I would be keeping the same wheels, mainly for stealth purposes, but also the fact I like the wheels and my admittedly limited knowledge always seems to dismiss bigger wheels as having no real benefit overall.

I've been a passenger in a chipped Ibiza TDI Sport, although that particular Ibiza used a standard mapping, but it seemed ok, torque steer he said was not really an issue. However, because he used a standard mapping and not a custom one he had problems - shuddering flywheel below 2,200 rpm, and clutch slip. This is because he had too much torque going through at too low revs. With a custom remap, they make sure that you do not get too much torque going through at too low revs and so it helps save the gearbox/clutch/flywheel. A custom remap normally pushes the torque higher up from the lower 2,000rpm range to 2,500+ and naturally, top end power is dramtically improved.

I would be using either Revo Technik, AmD Technik, or most likely, Jabba Sport, since they are not only the best value, but seem to have a very good reputation and a flexible custom remap where they can tailor it to your needs.

BTW, have you ever seen the "Gassing Station" forum at www.pistonheads.com ? There seems to be a lot of TVR / Sports car enthusiasts there...
 
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Tuners

Paul

I assume that AMD are the guys up Oxford (Bicester) way, if so I have exeprience of them, been on their Rolling Road a few times! Geoff at AMD helped design the original Crypton Tuner but left Crypton as his real passion was for tuning cars, he is very very good, and determined to do a good job.

Have no experience of the others. Mapping is all a bit digital in my car world, most of cars I've had radically tuned have been on carb(s). Hey we could open an analogue v digital debate, carbs or mapped injection!!

You're right about bigger wheels/tyres, most people just slap them on, but they are a significant part of the the suspension package (this is something people like Prodrive get right, as can been seen from their manufacturer endoresements). Too many people think that big wheels/tyres gets betting handling, it instantly gets you more grip (in the dry) but usually screws up the handling as the suspension geometry gets screwed. Stealth is cool!

Mr Perceptive

BTW I have been a PHer for years but have a different handle!
 
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Paul,

my friend the analoguekid,is indeed correct,I was indeed taking the piss when i said 3 tonnes:).I just don't like the TTs full stop,they are an irrelevant fashion statement imo,just pointless,and awful to drive,just deadly dull.And yes,I have driven the 4wd and the understeer was just as bad,and the 3.2 Quattro was no faster than a UK Scoob.

handling is a very complicated area,I would never change dampers unless it was done by a well known professional with full experience of geometry and a full laser rig.I have had the geometry checked and as usual it was well out,now easy to correct either.Also,lowering the car can upset the sensors with the ASR,although I never have that on anyway.
 
Paul

I assume that AMD are the guys up Oxford (Bicester) way, if so I have exeprience of them, been on their Rolling Road a few times! Geoff at AMD helped design the original Crypton Tuner but left Crypton as his real passion was for tuning cars, he is very very good, and determined to do a good job.

Have no experience of the others. Mapping is all a bit digital in my car world, most of cars I've had radically tuned have been on carb(s). Hey we could open an analogue v digital debate, carbs or mapped injection!!

You're right about bigger wheels/tyres, most people just slap them on, but they are a significant part of the the suspension package (this is something people like Prodrive get right, as can been seen from their manufacturer endoresements). Too many people think that big wheels/tyres gets betting handling, it instantly gets you more grip (in the dry) but usually screws up the handling as the suspension geometry gets screwed. Stealth is cool!

Mr Perceptive

BTW I have been a PHer for years but have a different handle!
Click to expand...

Sounds like the same AmD, they do things like Porsche brake conversions for VAG cars and such like. They are the most expensive tuner though, by quite a margin, but I'd probably choose those over Revo, as Revo tend to outsource their tuning to these dodgy boy racer garages so whether they do a proper job I dont know. Jabba at least do everything in house and seem to have good knowledge of the car and engine.

I remember once I stuck alloy wheels (the same size) to my old 1.0 Micra and it ruined the ride and handling so I can only imagine bigger wheels will be worse. My philosiphy since then has always been that a car should stay on the wheels its designed for, and like you say, stealth is cool :)

Anyway, I post occaisionally to PH, so you might bump into me (its a good forum that, really funny).
 
Saab said:
Paul,

my friend the analoguekid,is indeed correct,I was indeed taking the piss when i said 3 tonnes:).I just don't like the TTs full stop,they are an irrelevant fashion statement imo,just pointless,and awful to drive,just deadly dull.And yes,I have driven the 4wd and the understeer was just as bad,and the 3.2 Quattro was no faster than a UK Scoob.

handling is a very complicated area,I would never change dampers unless it was done by a well known professional with full experience of geometry and a full laser rig.I have had the geometry checked and as usual it was well out,now easy to correct either.Also,lowering the car can upset the sensors with the ASR,although I never have that on anyway.
Click to expand...

Fair enough mate, I am not much of a fan of them either. I am surprised that the 4WD understeers though. Still we all know the original Quattro was the best :D

Have you fettled with your Octy yet then? The springs and dampers are I believe specifically designed for the Fabia vRS so they should be OK I guess. I normally leave ASR on as it can be hard work keeping traction even in the dry with all that torque. If you leave it on in my car but treat the car as though it didnt have it, it all seems to gel together fairly well. Naturally though, if I wanna put the car sideways round corners, then it comes off :D
 
Audi TT THE Ultimate Hairdressers car, "I love me, who do you love Brigade", need only apply' the handle like a bowl of tapioca in a dulux paint mixer total kack.
Notice a theme here, Hifi<>Cars same anality? the human male a very odd bag
 

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