UK Student Debt - a true picture?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by auric, Jun 4, 2005.

  1. auric

    auric FOSS

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    A small note from the FT illustrating the fate that may await some students as they leave the hallowed halls of academia and sign up for Life 101.


    What value a new degree?

    Young, gifted... and drowning in debt
    Published: June 4 2005 03:00 | Last updated: June 4 2005 03:00

    Over the next month, more than 600,000 British students will don caps and gowns, cross grand stages and accept their degree certificates. As they do, you might consider saying a little prayer for these innocent newcomers to the real world - for the future of the Class of 2005 is bleak.
    Today's graduates are unlikely to make much more money than their non-university educated counterparts. They are swimming in credit card and student loan debt and many will be unable to afford to buy a house or flat for many years. To top it off, they face the harsh reality of having to work much longer than their parent's generation in order to fund an average retirement income.
    In the US, comedian Bob Hope used to say at the many graduation ceremonies where he spoke: "It's a jungle out there. Don't go." He didn't know the half of it.
    It didn't always used to be this way, of course. Up until 1990, students left university virtually debt-free, often having taken advantage of social security benefits, housing benefit, income support and sometimes even unemployment benefit. Even ten years ago, university graduates were welcomed into the workforce with good salaries that enabled them to buy homes within just a few years of graduation as well as generous company-sponsored pension schemes.
    No longer. Today's graduates never had it so bad. Consider this: according to the Barclays annual graduate survey, 73 per cent of new graduates are leaving university indebted - with the average amount owed standing at £13,501.
    Adding insult to injury, a University of Swansea study out this week indicates that a degree certificate is no longer the ticket to a well-paid job. Graduates can now expect to earn an average of only £140,000 more over their lifetimes compared with those who don't go to university. The researchers, Nigel O'Leary and Peter Sloane, attribute this to the supply of graduates expanding faster than demand for their skills.
    "The value [of a degree] is changing," says Carl Gilleard, chief of the Association of Graduate Recruitment (ARG). "It's not a meal ticket anymore."
    New graduates should also shelve their dreams of buying a new home any time soon. The Nationwide House Price Index calculates the current average asking price of a property at £162,303 while the median starting salary for a new graduate, according to ARG, is £22,000 a year. This equates to an income multiple of nine. It's no wonder it takes first-time homebuyers an average of four years and nine months to save enough money for a deposit on a house, according to a survey by National Savings and Investments.
    New graduates' prospects for retirement look dreary as well. According to the National Association of Pension Funds, the majority of final salary and defined benefit schemes, where employers contribute on average 16.1 per cent of a worker's salary a year, are closed to new employees. In their absence, most employers are offering money purchase schemes where employer contributions tend to average 7.6 per cent of a worker's salary into a pension each year, according to the NAPF.
    In addition, many of these newly minted graduates are likely to retire much later than their predecessors. Both employers and the government are gradually increasing the retirement age. At present, the age eligibility for the state pension is 60 for women and 65 for men. But the NAPF says that by 2030, the state pension age will be at least 70 for both sexes. "Inevitably, it's going to have to go higher, the demographics don't add up otherwise," says Andy Fleming of the NAPF.
    The problems are only set to get worse in years to come as rising living costs and higher tuition fees continue to drive up student borrowing. From September 2006, British universities will be able to charge fees of up to £3,000 per year to new students. Most universities charge £1,000 a year now, but have signalled that they intend to raise their fees.
    "Student debt has never been this bad, and with top-up fees, it's only going to get worse," says Hannah Essex, of the National Union of Students.
    It's not pretty. So what's a new graduate to do?
    "In the past, young people had more time to enjoy their new-found income, but this is no longer the case," says Dax Harkins, senior savings strategist at National Savings and Investments. "Therefore, it's really important to get your finances in order from the very beginning of your working life."
    The first step, says Peter Bielagus, author of Getting Loaded: Get Ready, Get Set, Get Rich, a personal finance guide for students and young professionals, is to pay off any credit card debt. "This should be a top priority because at 18 per cent and upwards, it the most expensive form of debt anyone can have."
    Student loan debt, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether. Because these loans are pegged to the retail price index - which from September will be 3.2 per cent, according to the measure used by the Student Loans Company - they are a relatively cheap form of debt and it may make economic sense to maintain them.
    The next priority should be building up a pension fund - particularly if you work at a company that has some sort of a matching plan for retirement savings. "It's very easy for someone in their early 20s to let these early years tick by without giving a second thought to their retirement, but the cost of delaying is substantial because of the effect of compounding," says Jonathan Fry, a certified financial planner.
    Additional savings - for a house or other big-ticket items - come next on the list of priorities. The trick here, say experts, is for recent graduates to keep their expenses low during their first few years in the working world. "You might want to live at home for a year. True this means you're delaying your financial freedom for a while, but it also allows you to save money," says Bielagus.
    Bielagus says that graduates often find that saving isn't as hard as it seems. "You have to look at your routines and see where you can cut back in the least painful way - it might mean you stop drinking designer coffee, or you switch to a less expensive mobile phone plan, or you bring a brown bag lunch to work a few times a week," he says. "The thing is, you can't save sporadically. You must be vigilant."
    Rebecca Knight is the author of A Car, Some Cash and a Place to Crash: The only Post-College Survival Guide You'll Ever Need (Rodale, 2003)
     
    auric, Jun 4, 2005
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  2. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    Not quite what I have read, on average a UK graduate will still earn £150k more in an average life time, this is lower than it used to be, but its still quite a lot more. It easily off sets £10k of student debts.

    The big difference now is you won't get a job just becuase you have a degree. This is true for many arts subjects. A degree in knitting from Doncaster Institute is not going to get a good job.

    Issac is a good example, he is the same age as me, he has a degree, he has a good job, nice car, nice house etc. Now I wonder if he would managed to have got such a good job without a degree?

    Its just the media being the media. I have realstic expectations, I know it will take a while for me to get a decent job, but if I didn't go to university I would been very lucky to get a job paying more than £10k a year.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 4, 2005
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  3. auric

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    The job... no, not without the degree. Not a chance.

    Please note that ARG's figure of £22000 as a median graduate salary is for those graduates going into specific graduate jobs/schemes such as run by BAE Systems and IBM. The average salary for all employed graduates (including those working in jobs unrelated to their degree) in their first year is £16000.
     
    I-S, Jun 4, 2005
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  4. auric

    GAZZ

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    Why should tax payers subsidize students past the age of 18? I had to leave school at 16 and find a job with 4 O levels, it was through hard work and moving employers 4 times i was able to get a HNC all the time paying tax working 6 days a week.

    There are to many students going to higher eduction compared to highly paid jobs. the market will detemine wages and the best students will get the jobs they are after and the best jobs.
     
    GAZZ, Jun 4, 2005
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  5. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    The tax payers don't pay that much, in many cases students pay the bulk of the fees. But on average students still pay more tax in their life time than none students. We will pay it back and more.

    In our modern society we need higher education and we need many people to it, there are a lot more HE graduates in France and Germany and there in the UK. Higher education is vital for technology ecomeny we are living in.

    A degree now is like having A levels in the 1970's, you need it you want any chance of getting a half decent job.

    My dad is a classic example, he was a libarian, he did his HE course in it straight after A levels, now to do the same course you need a degree.

    We have all worked, I myself have worked in computer factories for pitance, its why I decided to get a do A levels and a degree as its the only way I could have broken out of that cycle.

    I know there are problems with the current state of HE, but the tax arguement is simply not valid.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 4, 2005
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  6. auric

    GAZZ

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    You are missing the point AT, There are to many students doing degrees compared to good jobs so it will be the best students who get the cream. Its always been difficult to get a good gob, infact when i left school early 80's there were very few good jobs. As long as you keep yourself fluid on your furture you will be fine. Maybe i am jealose because what happened to me. Oh yes an A level maths is still classed higher than a lot of degrees.
     
    GAZZ, Jun 5, 2005
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  7. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    I did write a long reply but I am too tired so I haven't posted it. I know there are too many students competing for the same amount of jobs, but so many jobs now require a degree especialy in the public sector it does really widen your options.

    What is there to be jealous of? If you have a good job now then there is no reason at all you should be.

    University is very over rated, but for many of my generation its somthing which is now required for the industries we want to go into.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 5, 2005
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  8. auric

    GAZZ

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    What is there to be jealous of?

    I had to leave school through financial necessity at 16, 3 of my 4 brothers went in the forces.

    If students need degrees why then have employers started to set exams of there own? (private sector)
     
    GAZZ, Jun 5, 2005
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  9. auric

    tones compulsive cantater

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    It seems to me that the whole degree business in the UK (and in Oz and other English-speaking countries) has gone slightly mad. When I went to university back when lectures were constantly interrupted by rampaging tyrannosaurs looking for breakfast, only a few went to university and the few that didn't end up as breakfast graduated. But then, in those days, there were lots of apprenticeships and little jobs that school leavers with only O levels (or even no qualifications at all) could get. It's the disappearance of a whole battery of jobs that has fuelled this push into higher education, so that a degree is needed for everything.

    Here in Swizzieland, things are still that way. The road to the Matura, the Swiss university entrance exam, is cruelly hard, so that only about 15% of the school population will get it. The others? They get into apprenticeships. For example, most chemists in the Basel chemical and pharma industries are qualified apprentices. Chemistry graduates are expected to do a PhD and become the lab heads (if a graduate chemist doesn't do a PhD, s/he isn't taken seriously - it's the same in Germany).

    I sometimes think that setting the bar this high is a colossal waste of talent, but it does have its advantages. For one thing, anyone who survives to Matura (as have our girls) gets a really good, broad education - unlike A-level, you don't get to choose your subjects, you do everything. So Swiss Matura graduates will speak at least two languages fluently and have a good knowledge of at least a third. And because of the nature of the Matura, they'll have been thought to think, not merely pass exams. Our elder daughter worked for 6 months in Australia after Matura. She found the kids of her age to be "fluffy" in the thinking department.

    And when you have the Matura, university is a right, not a privilege, and you can do anything you want. Finally, the fees are a joke - I pay about £800 a year for my elder girl, and the younger will be the same.

    This is very close to the way it was in the UK in my day. Alas, no more, it appears.
     
    tones, Jun 5, 2005
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  10. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    Becuase they still need to filter out the best graudates. Just becuae you have a 2:1 it dosn't mean you have the skills that that particular employee is looking for.

    The financial thing is just bad luck, its happened to my mate as well he simply couldn't afford to go, I could afford to go but there is no way I could have afforded to go move out which is why I am still living at home.

    You're lucky you managed to get an HND payed for you, most us never have that oppurtunity.

    My uncle probably had the best deal though BNFL paid for his degree and then they offered him a job on condition he gets a 2:1.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 5, 2005
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  11. auric

    SCIDB Moderator

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    No it doesn't. If you earn £150K more over a working lifetime, it doesn't come to much more money. If you, say, work for 40 years, an extra £150K will work out at only £3750 extra a year.

    Not just art subjects, it happens in all subjects.


    How do you know? It is true that attending certain of universities could carry more weight but plenty of people have got good jobs and careers after attending 'so called' lesser places of higher education. Courses vary from university to unversity. Also most jobs and careers don't require a particular degree to do them.

    Issac is a clever chap. His job does require him to have certain knowledge which he got from his degree. But there are plenty of people with good jobs without degrees. Also Issac would have got the job on other factors as well.


    There is a lot of truth in that article. A lot of thing need to be looked at. More students are in big debt and not all ex-students are earning big money. There has been a big increase in student numbers but has there been a big increase in jobs and careers that need degrees?


    Going to university is not gurantee for a high paid job. I know of ex-students with degrees earning very little. But I know of ex-students with degrees earning a packet.

    It's not just a degree that dictates how much you will earn. Many other factors come into it. Other skills, determination and personality can come into it. Also luck can help.

    I know of a number of people who have done well in life with no degree education.


    SCIDB
     
    SCIDB, Jun 5, 2005
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  12. auric

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Here's the thing...

    For my job I had to fight pretty hard to get it. Look at it from the point of view of my degree I have a lower second class degree from one of the top universities in the field in this country. Frankly that's not a BFD (Big ******** deal). Electronic engineering has the second highest rate of graduates unemployed after 6 months (after computer science), so if a company wants an electronic engineering graduate they don't have to look that hard for them. What makes the difference is how many other EE grads have a demonstrable interest/obsession/call it what you will in the exact field that they're applying for (ie hifi in this case)? That was the deal maker.

    The labour government has come up with this whole thing of 100000 more people in higher education without actually thinking through quite what it is that they're meant to do...

    This results in the devaluing of degrees. For those who've seen The Incredibles, it's along the lines of "And when everbody's super..... no one will be".

    And if to prove that a degree isn't the meal ticket it once was... My brother has a degree from cambridge. He graduated two years before I did and has been out of work for 4 years this month.
     
    I-S, Jun 5, 2005
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  13. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    I do as well but it much harder now without a degree, my aunty has a very good job and has no degree, but she could not have got that job now without the degree.

    I know a degree is no guarentee of anything but its not just about the jobs, its an experience and if we have now work till 70 then 3 years off isn't really much.

    I had such a low opinion of human race before I went to university, meaingly due to scum backs on other courses at college and my school, but since going to university I have realised that most people in society are very decent people.

    Even if I don't end up getting a better job out of it I am glad I went. Its just a risk you take it might mean you get a better job or it might mean you have loads of debt and still end up in a crap job.

    The average starting salary for my department was £16.5k so I am not too worried. That is more than I would have been on without a degree even though its not a furtune.

    I suppose I am fairly unusual in that my degree is directly related to the job I want t do, and I have managed to get lots of practical experience for the job during my degree.

    I know my degree won't guarentee a thing, but it has to be better than working in that factory for five years on minimum wage screwing bits of metal together which is somthing I taught myself to when I was 13.

    The situtation is bleak but I don't think moaning about it will achieve anything. There does need to be better vocational education.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 5, 2005
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  14. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    I know its bleak what kind of work is your brother looking for? I fear for my sister becuase although she has AAAA at A levels and goes to Manchester sociology degrees are not the best in terms of employment.

    I think electrical engineering is a bit like computing, high unemployment but a higher chance of getting a job. Computer science has the highest unemployment but I am not too worried.

    When I left school at 16 I had no prospects whats so ever.

    There are very few jobs in what I want to do so I am going to apply for a support job which I am over qualified for, but if I get it its better than maoning I can't get a job for the next year or so.

    I probably won't get it anyway.

    Being optimistic is the key, I applied for my part time job thinking I would have no chance of getting it, I ended getting the job and getting paid £12 an hour at one stage, it ended up paying for a nice holiday in Europe.

    I am just being optimistic even if I am affraid of seeing the true reality :)
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 5, 2005
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  15. auric

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    Vocational education for what though?

    There are no more manufacturing jobs. Britain is (and has been for many years) moving to a very much post-industrial status. In 20 years time there's a very good chance that no EE jobs will exist in this country because that will all have gone to the far east with the manufacturing.
     
    I-S, Jun 5, 2005
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  16. auric

    amazingtrade Mad Madchestoh fan

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    Medicine, electrical engineering, computing, maybve even Law to a certain extent a examples of vocational education. Stuff like sociology, media studies, english etc is not, so you have more options open to you (hence better employment figures) but its harder to go into somthing specific (which is why vocational subjects need higher saleries)

    The way things are going the only industry the UK will actually have is selling chineese goods.
     
    amazingtrade, Jun 5, 2005
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