Want to get started with vinyl

[bottleneck]

Hi Ted

There is a recognized scale for vinyl condition.

For examples from Netsounds.com:

Before The Flood 12`` NM 7.68 vu

Before The Flood CD M 16.75 COW

Before The Flood LP VG+/VG+ 10.36 RCS

Before The Flood LP VG+/VG+ 25.27 RCS

Before The Flood 2LP ex/ex 12.00 AcousticSoup

'near mint'
'mint'
'excellent condition'
'good' etc

When an lp has two - like ex/ex this is refering to the cover aswell as the vinyl itself.
You can get definitions of exactly what is meant by each of those categories on the netsounds site.

As you can see 'Gemm' (american version of netsounds) has the same

BLOOD ON THE TRACKS S LP E- $6.50 BUY Info...
BLOOD ON THE TRACKS SACD CD NEW $14.39 BUY Info...
BLOOD ON THE TRACKS SACD 2003 CD VG+ $20.20 BUY Info... (2)
BLOOD ON THE TRACKS SESSIONS 1 LP VG- $11.07 BUY Info...

 

[Joe]

Thanks very much for all the replies - will go through them properly when I get a moment. Just regarding second hand LPs - isn't there a big risk with scratches? Also, does a lot depend on what sort of pressing you get? Eg if your LP is the first from a batch of 200 that's great, but the last LP would be vastly inferior? Any truth in that and if so, is there any way of telling? Perhaps visibly?

Scratches can be a problem, eg if buying 'blind' from a charity shop, but as someone else has pointed out, repuable secondhand dealers have a recognised system for decribng record condition.

With regard to which pressing sounds best, I think you're straying into audio nervosa territory. Yes, some re-pressings sound worse than the original issue, because for example poorer-quality vinyl is used, but unless you're using a very expensive set-up I doubt it'll be noticeable 90% of the time.

Here's link from A.N.Other forum which gives some information about pressings:
http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8266

If I were you I'd grab a bunch of charity shop specials, clean them up and enjoy the music.

 

[RDD]

What was said about it being a pre '95 thing to my mind is spot on (I said something similar in a recent thread). Anything beyond that and practically I'd stick with CD, BUT if you like a good old tweak and interaction with your kit, then sod it, go vinyl for everything

My most used turntable was bought second hand and is a bit of an oddity, but gives me a sound that I like from the silky V15 cart that's now 27 years old I also have a Rega based Goldring GR-1 which is also a great starter TT and available new, although now in GR-2 guise I think.

On the whole vinyl can be a very rewarding activity, and that's what it is. I derive most of my pleasure from the thrill of the chase, finding or deliberately tracking down great classic albums. Then you have the experience of giving it a clean when you get it home and looking at that great cover art. As for the sound, well in 2005 there's not much between it and CD IMHO but it's still a huge amount of fun.

 

[tones]

Besides, may be it is the luddite in me, but I sort of enjoy the involvment with regards to maintaining the deck, cleaning records etc.. Seeing the deck working and its mechanical features is so much better than a black box with a drawer.

I think this sums up very well the appeal of vinyl for many people. However, for someone such as myself, for whom the idea is that the equipment plays, rather than me, CD is what I want.

 

[pe-zulu]

I have spent the last 5 years trying to get my CD player to sound more and more natural. I am pleased with the sound
My question is what should I start with. I am happy to spend a bit of cash, but equally, I'd be happy to start with something relatively cheap.

Ed

If you start with something relatively cheap vinyl, you can't expect it to be better than your CD. Quality-vinyl
is expensive and troublesome, and you don't sound like a vinyl nostalgist at all, so why start?
Regards,

 

[muffinman]

If you start with something relatively cheap vinyl, you can't expect it to be better than your CD

true:
it will however sound a world apart from your x-ray, and not in a bad way. a clinical machine if i remember right. .
i was given a £40 sony T/T by my dad in law 5 years ago and have not looked back. i sold my x-ray and subsequently have no need to buy cd's. it is not a matter of one being better than the other imo. i find that lp's are vfm as invariably you listen to the whole disc and not just your favourite track because it's a PITA to get up and change all the time.
my real love though is wondering how a needle and four wires matches pound for pound (and beyond) all sorts of dacs,transports lasers and gubbins.
many of the nay sayers are right, it is an upgrade trap, but upgrades (usefull or not) are hardly thin on the ground here in hifi world.

i heartily reccomend you get a deck and some vinyl

 

[pe-zulu]

IMHO it is unfair to call the CD-medium a clinical machine.
It is just another modality.

Admittedly, that the vinyl-medium demonstrates more "athmosphere" than the CD-medium, is usually true of earlier digital recordings. Without doubt this difference between analoguos and digital reproduction has been considerably reduced during the last decade.

But the crucial factor, for me at least, is not just the high cost of equal vinyl quality, but rather the fact that vinyl care is extremely time-consuming, and reduces the effective time you have left for music listening. My interest is first and foremost the music itself.
That is why I implied, that vinyl is for vinyl nostalgists, I might as well write vinyl freaks.

Regards,

 

[pe-zulu]

true:
it will however sound a world apart from your x-ray, and not in a bad way. a clinical machine if i remember right. .

To compare digital sound reproduction and X-ray is not really apt. You must equal the X-ray with the soundwaves, which can be detected and reproduced either analogous or digitally, just as X-rays can be detected and reproduced either analogous or digitally.

In X-ray diagnosis we earlier used analogous X-ray (andlight) sensitive film. This has now been replaced by digital detecting and reproduction. But except for a special case (computer tomography with its special advantages) the quality of a digital picture doesn't yet equal a perfect analogous (film-) picture. So the analogous reproduction is the most accurate and for that reason the most "clinical",at least in the most cogent sense of the word. The possibility of "manipulating" the digital product digitally doesn't make it more clinical, rather on the contrary.

IMHO the digital sound reproduction has reached a quality which is far ahead of the quality of the digital picture reproduction, seen in relation to the corresponding analogous reproduction methods, as far as sound and picture can be compared at all.

Regards,

 

[muffinman]

IMHO it is unfair to call the CD-medium a clinical machine.

i owned an X-Ray and that was my view. i therefore see it as fair.
i did not say that CD per se was clinical.
cd is great
so is vinyl
i prefer vinyl
i'm a freak

 

[muffinman]

a musical fidelity X-ray cdp


sorry for any confusion caused

off to play with my gieger counter

 

[pe-zulu]

sorry for any confusion caused

Yes, you have got a very striking cause for writing so.

Regards,

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

I have spent the last 5 years trying to get my CD player to sound more and more natural.

These days "getting into vinyl" is a bad time. In eth mid-late 90's used LP Prices where well down and I bought as if they would go out of fashion. Today poor condition used LP's are expensive.

Equally, vinyl replay gear is now very good, but expensive. It adds up quickly by the time you have a decent phonostage and a Stetup transformer for a good quality MC pickup you are easily £ 5,000 poorer.

On the other had you can get pretty decent non-oversampling DAC's for very little money and they do a lot to bridge the gap. So, you might just want to spend a little more time looking at CD before you give up on CD.

Ciao T

 

[sideshowbob]

You don't need to spend £5K to get something great, nothing like it. £500 - £800 will get you a very good deck secondhand, many choices, £100 will get you a Denon DL-103 cartridge, and £100-£200 will get you a very reasonable secondhand phono stage (Rega Fono or the like). So, a spend of £1K or so will get you something much better than almost any CD player. Of course, £5K could get you something better still, but let's not pretend you need to start at that level.

As for secondhand LPs being expensive, all depends. They're not as cheap in the UK as they used to be, but there are plenty of places to get good cheap vinyl.

-- Ian

 

[The Devil]

....you might just want to spend a little more time looking at CD before you give up on CD.

This from another thread:

All my favourite music is on LP I'm afraid (and much of it not available on CD) and that largely because of the recording quality.

You are seriously weird.

 

[Ted]

Thanks for the posts - I'm still undecided actually. I agree that the MF X-Ray is perhaps somewhat clinical, but I now only use it as a transport with the tri-vista 21 DAC which is fantastic. Have to say, having listened to a lot of music this weekend, my system does sound fantastic - I guess I'm just curious as to how much better it can get, and find myself wondering if vinyl is the answer....

 

[pe-zulu]

Ted and Muffinman,

You use the term "clinical" in a confusing sense.

"Clinical" must mean strictly objective, or at least as neutral as possible. This must be the aim of every good reproductionsystem, whether analogous or digital. Hence the analogous system is the most "clinical" since it still - if you spend money enough,produces the most realistic sound.

Regards,

 

[muffinman]

You use the term "clinical" in a confusing sense.

jeez.

lacking in overall musicality due to it's inherent nature to retrieve a little too much detail - for my liking.

can this please be the end of it?

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

You are seriously weird.

Nope, I am still on vinyl and never "got off it". So I have a huge collection and no desire to replace it with CD. If I buy new music I tend to get CD/SACD even if LP is available (rather rarely an option anyway).

For someone starting now I think that the current availability of vinyl does not really justify the investment needed if sound quality is main goal. You need to step up to and past Gyro/Orbe (and that is even 2nd hand a good deal of money) levels if you want to get from LP what is possible and to really outclass CD.

And even then it is a bit hit/miss which generation pressing you get and so on on the 2nd hand market, the new Audiophile Pressings are pretty good in most cases (except where the masters are too degraded) but they do not neccesarily exceed the CD Issues that run parallel, certainly not on affordable LP replay gear. I think the enthusiasm by some in the press for Vinyl is overdoing it (the same applies to SACD & DVD-A BTW).

L8er T

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

I guess I'm just curious as to how much better it can get, and find myself wondering if vinyl is the answer....

In that case, try to get some Demo's of Vinyl Rigs (preferably not at shops, except the most hardcore Vinyl oriented ones) to see how this compares and if the results meet your expectations. You might want to check Walrus as you are in London. Apart from that, I tend to keep my door open if time allows.

Ciao T

 

[sideshowbob]

Ah, the old "sound quality" neurosis. The curse of audiophilia. Thank goodness we don't all suffer from it.

Ted, my best advice would be: if you're primarily interested in exploring music new to you which is not otherwise available on CD, or like hanging around secondhand record shops picking up interesting music, a TT is a great investment. As a bonus, unless you're really hung up on musically unimportant questions, the chances are that you will find it equally as enjoyable as your CD player. Speaking as somebody who's owned a TT for over 30 years, I can't say the advent of CD made any difference to whether or not I had a decent record collection, which is really the only important thing. Good recordings and good pressings are a bonus, but it's arse over tit to make that the most important consideration.

My other advice would be to ignore audiophile pressings as much as possible, unless you're more interested in questions of audio quality than you are in music.

-- Ian