What kit do you use -esoteric, or mainstream?

Funny, my experience of some of them has been a really quite engaging liveliness and "presence" and certainly the least of my moans would be regards bass - but then I'm not looking for blossomy, rolly-polly bass (I'm not suggesting the Linn's bass is of this kind). I have lived with the SCD-1 for a while, but am looking to improve on its CD output - currently trying a non OS DAC, but this hasnt proved to be much of an improvement, if any. Just a little different.

 

James, I appriecate your vote of confidence

 

I've not seen any Dynavector second hand here. They actually sell very little into the home market. New prices are relatively good but finding a dealer who carries their stuff (as opposed to having an account and being able to order something in for you) aint easy.

What little Accuphase stuff I've seen hasn't been bargain basement either. Luxman was popular here in the eighties IIRC but don't see too much of them around now. Not sure how it compares to UK prices but I've found (after a quick scan):
* Accuphase CX 260/PX 600 Pre/Power Amplifier Set As New $10,000.00
* Accuphase E-407 Integrated Amplifier Excellent $5,000.00
* ACCUPHASE P7000 + C2000 Stereo Pre/Power combination is brand-new in box with full manufacturer's 5 year warranty and currently lists at $38,000 selling for $26,000
* Pre Amplifier Luxman C-03B $550.00
* Processor Luxman F-105 $300.00
* CD player Luxman DC-112 $250.00
* LUXMAN F-106 Centre/surround add on amplifier $350

John, I've got a handful of dealers around the country who handle second hand Hi-Fi bookmarked but as you say, you may be waiting a long time to find what you want. Perhaps we could compare notes of where to look?

Must say I'm pretty jealous of the second hand market in the UK and US!

Regards,

Stuart

 

Greetings All

Daytona said:

Unfortunately text is always open to ambiguity in a way that speech is not, and if I came across as having a rant, or being angry, then that was not the case, and certainly not intended to seem as if it was. Also I perhaps should've made my abbreviations a little more precise - I'm in Australia, or AU, somehow I think AUS, (another way of saying OZ, or Australia) is an abbreviation for somewhere else. I'd love to take you up on your invitation to visit argos etc, but unfortunately I'm on the other side of the world...

As regards "as they tweak and refine other manufacturers designs, and sell it on at four and five times the cost" I still stand by this, as with a few exceptions there does not seem to be any real cutting edge engineering or technical developments amongst many of the specialists - (understandably so as they would not in all likelihood have the budgets to do this) - largely they seem to buy in the same parts from the same manufacturers as the 'mainstream' or even parts from the mainstream manufacturers themselves, tweak, refine, and bake a slightly different recipe/cake/amp/CD player etc, which is then marketed as being something unique which it is arguably not. There's nothing new in this, as similar parallels exist in the auto industry, watch industry etc.

I'm not saying it is wrong, or bad, or even unfair, but sometimes it does appear to be a case of badge engineering, or worse, a case of the emporers new clothes.

As an example, a few years back I bought my first DVD player. I waited for what was then the forthcoming Arcam DV88, because I believed that being a specialist product it would have something extra to offer over alternative 'mainstream' brands. With delays etc, the expected arrival time stretched out from 6 to 18mnths, and I was frankly somewhat dissappointed with it. Yes, it had v/good CD replay (for a DVD player) but the picture whilst good, was not up to the standard of the then top Toshiba, Sony, Pioneer and Denon machines, and the sound on 5.1 surround movies was good, but bettered in particular by the top Toshiba and Sony. It had a cheap plastic fascia, the DVD drive was either an Samsung, or LG (according to my dealer when he opened it up to look at the 'innards' in my prescence, and the remote was essentially a cheap piece of plastic junk.

This player retailed at around the UK thousand pound mark - here in AU/OZ it was three thousand dollars - and a firm price at that, as it was this 'specialist product' with the accompanying aura of prestige and exclusivity.

I eventually bought the then top Sony DVD player, the then 9000ES machine. This had a 2mm thick copper plated steel chassis, with a milled alloy fascia, twin transformers for audio and video, calcium carbonate base damping material for dealing with microphonic vibrations, a hermetically sealed proprietary transport, backlit high quality remote, and a level of build and picture/sound performance that was really only equalled by the later Arcam FMJ27. The Sony retailed at the time at around 1,300 UK pounds, which equated to around 3,500 AU dollars. But without the mystique/aura/ or if you will snob sell of the Arcam, prices were negotiable, and I paid closer to 2,500 AU dollars - cheaper than the Arcam DVD88, and IMHO a much better player on performance, build, and overall quality. The FMJDVD27, which would be its equal on picture grounds, and arguablly superior on sound came in later at $6,500 AU dollars.

I note that the current listing for a B&W N801 is AU $35,000 dollars. I also note that I can get a brand new BMW 118i for that amount of money. When I look at the complexity, and parts cost for a car, as against some lovely veneered wood, some kevlar, paper, cast alloy baskets and some wire etc, I er, start to wonder about VFM, (especially here in OZ) and whether the performance advantages of the specialist makes are really worth it over the more mainstream brands/products.

Perhaps I should've addressed my comments more directly to any AU members on the forum, as undoubtedly different markets will engender a different response, but I still am finding to my ears at least, that the gap between the specialist manufacturer and the 'mainstream' in performance and quality terms is narrowing all the time, whilst the price difference is not. I'm sure this must apply in some way to the UK market as well, but almost certainly other markets such as the US etc.

Hope this helps

Best

John...

 

Greg - I would probably agree with you here to some degree - the sound of the cd players is detailed and all the information seems to come through - even on their budget players but I guess once a basshead always a basshead I do enjoy showing non-believers how the shelves rattle when you play Laurent Guarnier or James Lavelle too loud

Also with regards the SCD-1 I can't think of many other hifi manufacturers that could have produced something of this quality at the price - look how much that cd/sacd from Classe cost - £12k (or there abouts). Does prove Johns Naim's point a little.

 

There is often an tendency to equate quality to price but, as you point out, this does not take into account economies of scale. The electronic majors can build and sell products at prices that small companies simply cannot.

I have no problem with people buying something for the name or the look or pride of ownership etc. But if you are an audiophile, the question is whether you believe buying an exclusive product from a small specialist has some added magic in some 'musical' sense. That is often used to justify buying something from a specialist. Fair enough if it makes you happy. But, for all you know, the designer of the specialist product may be a Boyzone and Mariah Carey fan...

 

No problem Tony. It's a bit unfair of me to comment really, because I'm only going on second-hand reports.

 

Your not the only one Tone
After all the shows,demos etc I've never heard a commercial system that I would consider to sound right for me

 

All my kit is mainstream but it also offers better value because its made in higher qualities. It does the job it sounds great to me, at the moment I have no reason at all to upgrade.

I don't really care too much about the name, but I wouldn't like to pay a lot or somthing with an Alba badge on it. Most of my stuff is of Japaneese origin, Marantz, Sony, Rotel the only HIFI European HIFI seperate I own is my turntable which is made in the Czech republic.

 

Hey WM... have you ever contacted any of the companies e.g. Wadia and told them that you can beat their best CD player with one of your modded versions? I suspect if you can prove this to them they'll give you loads of cash to tinker with whatever you like.

 

Tim,
A nice thought sir , however the big players get more than little ruffled if you even dare suggest their products are anything other than the best, plus reverse engineering is a lot simpler (most of the time) then designing from scratch. There are a few people capable of generating some quite superb results by 'Tinkering' as you put it, I merely do what does it for us, however very fortunate to have a lab and equipment that most don't.
All these products are designed to a meet particular part of the market sector and are priced accordingly.
That means cost of R&D, casework, parts (Quality and amount of) and marketing.
A lot of the very best equipment, is virtually hand built, that making it a serious price issue, though these are usually built to the manufacturers bespoke preferences, so again is that person/s view of the sonic world, in the same way the mods we do are ours, its just whether the indivdual likes them, nothing more.
Bmw and Merc, have approved companies which 'Tinker' with varies models in their ranges, which can add up to 100% on top of the retail price, they cater for a very small sector of the Market, (although a lucritive one).
Audio is different so many internet guru's and information scullying about, and tweeking an amp in the kitchen isn't too tricky, changing a gearbox on an M3 requires just a touch more space
Plus the stigma of price, as everyone knows the price of Black gates or oscons/ V-caps.
Though maybe at this years show a few concepts maybe re-arranged Wm