Who is the Biggest Threat To Peace?

Care to qualify your allegation with some facts to support?

 

No.

I don't care for facts.

Bluemax,

Picture that we are in total agreement. In fact, i'm stockpiling my bunker right now.....

.....what then do you propose to do to ameliorate the situation?

 

....then:

Come on! Whether you believe the first two statements or not is entirely up to you but they are opinions, no more than that. They are certainly not "facts" and they are in no way "verifiable" as facts.

I probably have a very similar general view of the US to you but you're not doing yourself any favours. Overblown statements like those above don't help. Bush is many bad things but I don't see how even the most vehement anti-Bush person could believe that his government is "the most evil force in the world today" I would put the govts of Zimbabwe, Burma and many others much higher on the list.

Then, to compare the Bush govt. to Hitler's Nazi Germany is quite absurd and, worse, it trivialises the holocaust and everything associated with it.

Where has Robbo posted anything that could remotely be construed as a personal attack? He's merely asking questions.

Michael.

 

All these posts contain facts historical and otherwise that are verifiable if only one care to do some research

16th December 2003 17:46
17th December 2003 09:32
17th December 2003 13:59
17th December 2003 14:15
17th December 2003 22:49

More to follow!

 

There are some smug people around who believe US when they talk about "Our Special Relationship" and hope to gain by siding with them. What they say is just opportunistic eye wash. US have been known to change their tune to suit their immediate objectives. And embark on propaganda against countries that they have held in esteem.

Take France for example, a country that helped US to set up with a democratic system and constitution after the Civil War. In pursuit of culture, Americans often mimic phrases from the French language. Once I was in Sacramento with a group of Europeans taking part in a competition. When eating out we came across a waiter who seem to have difficulty in speaking English and was mumbling away in French. A Frenchman in our group who at first genuinely thought the waiter was French, tried to engaging him in a conversation asking such things as which part of France he is from etc. The waiter panicked and made a retreat! Only later we found out that pretending to be a French waiter is just part of his job and such fakes can be found in many up market restaurants.

As soon as France opposed the war against Iraq, US propaganda machine started their attack on everything French. Remember 'French fries' being renamed 'freedom fries' ? French Americans who have been running busy French restaurants suddenly find their tables empty!

Going back to "Our Special Relationship", don't you know that most of the funds and weapons for the IRA came from USA? May be due to the colonial past, there is a dormant dislike for Brits that they can set alight as and when it suits them.

It is clear to see that Britain is just being used by the US. And that is causing a deep rift between us and our EU partners.

 

Seconded. People don't seem to know what went on during those days. The word 'madness' doesn't even begin to describe it. Hell really seemed to have been let loose, devils and all.

 

Bluemax - have you been reading Chomsky per chance?

 

BlueMax, what's your point?

You haven't responded to any of the points/posts made by anyone else and have just started off on a whole new tangent to the main theme. That's not really constructive debate. We can all read Michael Moore / Noam Chomsky / Will Hutton (all great stuff IMO) if we want to know those things

Michael.

 

Personal attacks Dont know where you got that one from.

I was merely trying to establish whether your rather odd views on the US are serious, or whether you are on a wind up. It is clear from your response that you are deadly serious.

I will now retire to the other rooms to discuss more meaningful issues, my curiosity having been satisfied.

 

I did not! I suggest you read my post of 17th December 2003 15:27 again.

on the contrary, reminding people of that horrible crime so that it is not repeated again in any form, can never be called trivialising.

BTW. US has murdered many more INNOCENT people all over the world. Below are some examples:
US war on Vietnam that killed 1 million Vietnamese people.
Kissinger gave the go-ahead for the Indonesian invasion of East Timor in 1975. Over 200,000 people were killed as a result. He was also responsible for souring relations between Turkey, Greece and Cyprus, a division that still produces murder and maiming.
US paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!
US fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed millions of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering that it caused to interrupt our day one single bit.
US have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador)

 

US began with the genocide inflicted on native North Americans; it enslaved its own people and nearly tore itself apart in a cataclysmic war fought, in part, about that slavery. It has since spread its beneficence and its mayhem around the globe with casual disregard for all others and killing millions of people.

US indeed is another Nazi Germany in the making. But on a grand global scale.

It is obvious to anyone who do not bury their heads in the sand for reasons best known to themselves.

 

BlueMax:

I sympathize with what you say. I even have a book recommendation that may strengthen your hatred for the USA – it shows that genocide was first theorized in America before it was carried out in Nazi Germany (but be very careful, here: the English intellectuals are not free from this sin, either; remember Galton, Spencer and Darwin himself).

But surely you must agree that you cannot get power without displays of strength that will, ultimately cause many people to die.

I don't condone it. It's just how it works. Our species, from the very beginning, was composed of warmonger groups. They got bigger during the Neolithic and now there are huge, heavily armed attacking structures.

So you are not criticizing America, but mankind. I hope you do agree with me that Hitler, Stalin and Mao were more dangerous than America is or was. But every Empire (the Greek thalassocracy, the Roman Empire, the Incas', even the British one) were maintained by the use of brutal force.

You'll say you are against empires. But, again, that is being against humankind – we just tend to build them. Pretending otherwise is wishful thinking.

We, in Western Europe, are very fortunate not to have wars for more than half a century. But this, in terms of European History, is an exception.

So, while I sympathize with your dislike for powerful empires, I am forced to accept them.

Or you can get someone to fight them, build another empire, and start from scratch.

 

Ah! at last an intelligent reply on the topic. Thank you Rds.
Though I did get 3 emails and a PM from others who somehow felt inhibited from posting. Peer Pressure?!

I do not hate US as such. I have friends and relatives there. And it is a country I have worked in and later done business with. I even admire some aspects of the US. If USSR had won the cold war, it is very possible that I will now be acting and be speaking against them.

It is indeed those dark and primitive aspects of human nature that eventually manifest as ruthless empires, dictatorships, genocide, etc. There are many examples of that ever since the dawn of humanity. Glad to know that you are well aware of that.

We have laws in the society to prevent and protect people from the evil aspects of human kind. But International Law has broken down. It is stupid to give power to one country to 'police the world'.

Unilateralism is a danger to our existence more than ever before. It is also in the human nature to fight back when threatened. We live in a nuclear age. Unlike before, the devastation will be so enormous that we stand a very good chance of becoming extinct? Far fetched? Many people don't think so.

The period of peace and prosperity since WW2, we enjoy in Europe is recognition of some aspects of human nature and channeling in a positive way. Based on competition in mutually beneficial way. It has also has the potential to restore balance of power in the world so that unilateralism is prevented before the Eagle get the energy sources under its control and can dictate to everyone else. 'Leverage' is a term that is used a lot in the US. Politics and in business. And they know how to use it to full advantage.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I agree with you, but the question is: if the US is determined to play the hawk, there is no way of deterring them. If they want to be the world's police, there is no one woth the power to police them.

Only a kind of Hobbesian social contract might do the thing. But the US are unlikely to get into any contract because right now they can choose what they want and get away with it.

By the way, should Europe become a relevant factor, this would be different: we could get them to agree and abide to the contract. But we are miles away from that.

So I am rather pessimistic at the moment.

In spite of which, have a Merry Christmas.

(I'm almost without an internet connection. So if I don't answer back don't think I'm being rude).

 

Small point ... Stalin signed a non aggression treaty with Nazi Germany.. because he was paranoid and feared that otherwise Hitler would invade the Soviet Union.. That's significantly different from "siding" with them. Also.. The UK was to all intents and purposes dragged in to the war also.... they only declared war when Hitler invaded Poland which we had signed a "freindship" treaty with. If we'd really been so interested in "doing the right thing" and fighting an "Evil" .. we would have declared war the minute Germany "anexed" Austria.

Funny how our view of WWII makes us look so virtuous and the French/Soviets etc so devious/self serving. The simple fact is that without the help of the red army or the french partisans (the French government surrendered not the French people) the Americans couldn't have "won the war" for us poor helpless europeans. If you want to point fingers.. remember who the bad guys were.. ie Germany/Italy/Spain .. and the ones that didn't care.. Switzerland etc. The others all made sacrifices for the right side.

GTM

 

President Bush and Bishop Desmond Tutu are both Christians and read the same Bible.
Christian God of Tutu is of love and compassion and tells him, “Blessed are the peace makersâ€Â.
Bush's God is more of the hebrew type of the Old Testament that tells him, "Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth".

Merry Christmas everyone
and hopefully a peaceful New Year!

 

blessed are the cheesemakers!