Hmm quite pricey landed for a little amp. EL84 is one option so similar and I think the Icon Audio SETs represent good value.
After the 4 way now a big boys 5 way
- Thread starter speedy.steve
- Start date
Been making a first stand up - proof of concept.
Ready for a bit of mig action
Proof of concept
Not beefy enough so more bracing added but proved the heights are right.
From the front the stands are hardly visible from the front which is what I really wanted. You just focus on the horns and the sound.
The tweeter likes being in free air I think
The crossover box will I think hang on the back of the tapped horn - perhaps I'll do that today.
I might paint them the same colour as the walls or the same light beech as the horns will eventually get finished in.
It's easy to raise and lower (should a Raal Ribbon need to go in there) and easy to time align.
The racket straps are temporary until I figure what else to use but are strong and easy to adjust...
One more to make now but of course I need more steel.
Ready for a bit of mig action
Proof of concept
Not beefy enough so more bracing added but proved the heights are right.
From the front the stands are hardly visible from the front which is what I really wanted. You just focus on the horns and the sound.
The tweeter likes being in free air I think
The crossover box will I think hang on the back of the tapped horn - perhaps I'll do that today.
I might paint them the same colour as the walls or the same light beech as the horns will eventually get finished in.
It's easy to raise and lower (should a Raal Ribbon need to go in there) and easy to time align.
The racket straps are temporary until I figure what else to use but are strong and easy to adjust...
One more to make now but of course I need more steel.
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Dev
Moderator
How you getting on with your narrow GRFs?
Dev
Moderator
Hi Steve, yes I was asking how they sound.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Fine - just like the other GRF's really. I could not detect any great difference anyway. Bass was same goodness and that was the critical thing having modelled it.
2nd stand is now made and installed. I am now going to make proper fixings / hangings for them.
U bolts came to mind but there is nothing available of 120cm total length like that so I will make my own out of threaded bar covered in PVC tubing finished with heat shrink to matt black them. Another interesting phase...
I am def going to have to get a pair of Raal Lazy Ribbon Tweeters too... I auditioned a pair and even from the 9000Hz up I need, they did lovely things.
U bolts came to mind but there is nothing available of 120cm total length like that so I will make my own out of threaded bar covered in PVC tubing finished with heat shrink to matt black them. Another interesting phase...
I am def going to have to get a pair of Raal Lazy Ribbon Tweeters too... I auditioned a pair and even from the 9000Hz up I need, they did lovely things.
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time for an update
Hanger config
Weight of JBL2482 and horn is about 30KGs
I've been reading up on Le Cleac'h and tractrix horns. Mouth termination seems critical
Having taped it up to ensure smooth transitions I liked the results. Slightly smoother and
silky is how I would describe it.
I am looking into to making a Le Cleac'h horn profile next to try that. For practicality I will do the upper mid (crossing at 1250Hz and up).
But before I start the full Le Cleac'h project (still reading up on that one) let see if we can eek out even more performance out of the conicals...
Having spent a bit more time with the on foam rolled mouth terminations on the Mid upper horns (crossing at 1250Hz up) and having had a good look at this thread
about Le Cleac'h profiles vs others...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/140190-jean-michel-lecleach-horns-129.html
This one is linked to and shows a simulation of what it might look like
http://www.jhsaudio.com/conical.html
This one that Mr Coco sent me does some practical tests and shows some measurements.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...ic-Quality-of-Mid-amp-HF-Horns-amp-Waveguides
Anyway I taped the foam on to the horns to ensure careful smooth termination. Upon more listening I liked the result. Slightly smoother and silky - nice.
Having spent quite a lot of time fiddling with the foam I bit the bullet and in not much more time make a permanent solution.
12 pieces compound angle cut to fit (table saw )
Spent a while rounding and we have
Back with driver loaded and in place on the stand.
Can't test yet as the 2nd one is in the workshop with the pieces gluing. More shaping work tomorrow morning and then listening tests in the afternoon.
Fun and games.
Hanger config
Weight of JBL2482 and horn is about 30KGs
I've been reading up on Le Cleac'h and tractrix horns. Mouth termination seems critical
Having taped it up to ensure smooth transitions I liked the results. Slightly smoother and
silky is how I would describe it.
I am looking into to making a Le Cleac'h horn profile next to try that. For practicality I will do the upper mid (crossing at 1250Hz and up).
But before I start the full Le Cleac'h project (still reading up on that one) let see if we can eek out even more performance out of the conicals...
Having spent a bit more time with the on foam rolled mouth terminations on the Mid upper horns (crossing at 1250Hz up) and having had a good look at this thread
about Le Cleac'h profiles vs others...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/140190-jean-michel-lecleach-horns-129.html
This one is linked to and shows a simulation of what it might look like
http://www.jhsaudio.com/conical.html
This one that Mr Coco sent me does some practical tests and shows some measurements.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...ic-Quality-of-Mid-amp-HF-Horns-amp-Waveguides
Anyway I taped the foam on to the horns to ensure careful smooth termination. Upon more listening I liked the result. Slightly smoother and silky - nice.
Having spent quite a lot of time fiddling with the foam I bit the bullet and in not much more time make a permanent solution.
12 pieces compound angle cut to fit (table saw )
Spent a while rounding and we have
Back with driver loaded and in place on the stand.
Can't test yet as the 2nd one is in the workshop with the pieces gluing. More shaping work tomorrow morning and then listening tests in the afternoon.
Fun and games.
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Now there is a pair and they are plumbed in and playing.
First impressions
Definitely smooths something nicely on the vocals (test track Piano and vocals only of Jose James and Jef Neve).
God - I'll have to do the mid horns now...
Now on a Bach Kantaten (large'ish coral piece), hmm here the difference is quite marked! The upper mids are integrating better.
Soprano is improved also.
They always sounded very alive and on occasion a bit too so, for the rest to keep up.
It was always build a system around that first horn / 2435 pair I made, that could keep up.
I thought it was probably the 2435Be driver and perhaps to an extent it is but now it is just that little bit sweeter and yes even more realistic. The rolled up magazine and tea towel trick
I love this hobby!
Mids done
First impressions
Definitely smooths something nicely on the vocals (test track Piano and vocals only of Jose James and Jef Neve).
God - I'll have to do the mid horns now...
Now on a Bach Kantaten (large'ish coral piece), hmm here the difference is quite marked! The upper mids are integrating better.
Soprano is improved also.
They always sounded very alive and on occasion a bit too so, for the rest to keep up.
It was always build a system around that first horn / 2435 pair I made, that could keep up.
I thought it was probably the 2435Be driver and perhaps to an extent it is but now it is just that little bit sweeter and yes even more realistic. The rolled up magazine and tea towel trick
I love this hobby!
Mids done
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here are the Raal Lazy Ribbon Tweeters ... Supplied by Advanced Loudspeakers.
A little foam under the upper mid horn, on the 14ohm tap (most efficient) and off we go.
How do they sound - well, like with the ones I tested briefly, they just integrate effortlessly and take over where the upper mid 2435Be's leave off. It's that simple. Seamless. Upper register Violins are so sweet, soprano vocals very pure and clear. Def worth the effort, money and wait. Can't want for more really - apart from better setting up and that's part of the fun.
The JBL2405's aren't bad but these are in a difference league.
Now I need to calm down a bit for a while I think... and just listen.
But a few things on the to do list are:
1. Raise the horns a bit more
2. Time align properly
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business
A little foam under the upper mid horn, on the 14ohm tap (most efficient) and off we go.
How do they sound - well, like with the ones I tested briefly, they just integrate effortlessly and take over where the upper mid 2435Be's leave off. It's that simple. Seamless. Upper register Violins are so sweet, soprano vocals very pure and clear. Def worth the effort, money and wait. Can't want for more really - apart from better setting up and that's part of the fun.
The JBL2405's aren't bad but these are in a difference league.
Now I need to calm down a bit for a while I think... and just listen.
But a few things on the to do list are:
1. Raise the horns a bit more
2. Time align properly
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business
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A little update -
I added 2 Anti-mode 8033C's - natty little self measuring room mode correction DSP devices and they really work
Here is a pic of one
Here's how they measure.
Before (quite an early one)
After
Only look at the 20 - 100Hz range for the anti mode. But it's pretty impressive and you can hear it on those frequencies to can see the peak and troughs.
The other improvements are probably down to better driver placement, rounded mouth termination, acoustic damping on horn backs to reduce reflections etc...
I also got a Berhinger measuring mic and Phantom power / pre for it. Calibrated it in Holmipulse using the loop test and generic cal file and it should be good enough for my use.
I then went on to time align the top 4 drivers.
Here's how one looks out of alignment
now in alignment
And so on, between upper mid and mid, mid and mid bass on each side.
I think I am doing it right and I could hear a good improvement in clarity and focus having done it all.
For the mid bass this meant modifying the stands somewhat (I love any reason to get the MIG and angle grinder out though)
I can now have them as far forward as I like as they clear the stands.
I've also braced the tapped horns externally some more - Partly to break up the boring monolith faces and partly cos' at Scalford they will have to run harder and I don't want any boom - (might still be a problem lets see).
I recently found this (I have read much of the Danley stuff on the Great tapped horn thread on DIYaudio)
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=DTS 20
Interesting that same birch ply I used is deployed... Similar power and response too. The PDF tells much more info (if you are interested).
Recommends 24dB/oct crossover, so I am now playing with that as well.
So left to do for Scalford:
-Still some finishing to do and then at my wife's request they will be finished in beech flavoured varnish.
-Make up show cables (mine are plumbed in rather) - only need 60 banana plugs would you believe!
I added 2 Anti-mode 8033C's - natty little self measuring room mode correction DSP devices and they really work
Here is a pic of one
Here's how they measure.
Before (quite an early one)
After
Only look at the 20 - 100Hz range for the anti mode. But it's pretty impressive and you can hear it on those frequencies to can see the peak and troughs.
The other improvements are probably down to better driver placement, rounded mouth termination, acoustic damping on horn backs to reduce reflections etc...
I also got a Berhinger measuring mic and Phantom power / pre for it. Calibrated it in Holmipulse using the loop test and generic cal file and it should be good enough for my use.
I then went on to time align the top 4 drivers.
Here's how one looks out of alignment
now in alignment
And so on, between upper mid and mid, mid and mid bass on each side.
I think I am doing it right and I could hear a good improvement in clarity and focus having done it all.
For the mid bass this meant modifying the stands somewhat (I love any reason to get the MIG and angle grinder out though)
I can now have them as far forward as I like as they clear the stands.
I've also braced the tapped horns externally some more - Partly to break up the boring monolith faces and partly cos' at Scalford they will have to run harder and I don't want any boom - (might still be a problem lets see).
I recently found this (I have read much of the Danley stuff on the Great tapped horn thread on DIYaudio)
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=DTS 20
Interesting that same birch ply I used is deployed... Similar power and response too. The PDF tells much more info (if you are interested).
Recommends 24dB/oct crossover, so I am now playing with that as well.
So left to do for Scalford:
-Still some finishing to do and then at my wife's request they will be finished in beech flavoured varnish.
-Make up show cables (mine are plumbed in rather) - only need 60 banana plugs would you believe!
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A little update - I decided to take the tapped horns to a 4th order or 24dB/octave crossover. Def sounds better as the tapped horns are shutting up and letting the mid bass play more cleanly through. The freq resp. slope measures correspondingly steeper once I sorted the measurements out.
Today I had the tapped horns outside for a spot of finishing (used a large porters trolley to move them, worked well strapping them to it and using the cab as a handle).
Here's a pic of them - tiddly really. Actually they look bigger outside than they do tucked in the room corners.
Scalford here we come...
Today I had the tapped horns outside for a spot of finishing (used a large porters trolley to move them, worked well strapping them to it and using the cab as a handle).
Here's a pic of them - tiddly really. Actually they look bigger outside than they do tucked in the room corners.
Scalford here we come...
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Dev
Moderator
Do you have an HGV license?
Mr Coco will be driving, I think he said he was getting a LWB transit which will be fine. The loading bay in a normal transit van is too short.
Little update.
I have been playing around with trying the tweeter and upper mid horn reversed.
I had to mod the stand (angle grind off the hanger for the upper mid horn) and devise a new better more flexible mounting for the upper mid. That done it has been under test for a few weeks and I like it a lot...
Here's how they look.
Once time aligned carefully the sound is even more cohesive and right.
That's it now for a while - famous last words.
Oh yeah, I was going to make a tractrix upper mid wasn't I...
I have been playing around with trying the tweeter and upper mid horn reversed.
I had to mod the stand (angle grind off the hanger for the upper mid horn) and devise a new better more flexible mounting for the upper mid. That done it has been under test for a few weeks and I like it a lot...
Here's how they look.
Once time aligned carefully the sound is even more cohesive and right.
That's it now for a while - famous last words.
Oh yeah, I was going to make a tractrix upper mid wasn't I...
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Welcome round
NP. You'd be welcome. I am not that far from you - 7 mins from jnct 3 of the M3.
NP. You'd be welcome. I am not that far from you - 7 mins from jnct 3 of the M3.
update time - a few changes...
Just took delivery of another add-on to try.
Can you guess what they are for.
Wife though some kind of weird urinal. Daughter said some kind of guide for the butt...
Some wood chopping to make mounts that will fit them. More birch ply and table sawing.
Today I made some new lash up holders for the tweeters and provision to secure the wave guides.
As noted they are extremely nicely made, very solid and nicely weighted.
So far I have just plonked them down and with rough (by measurement where they were on the previous holders) alignment.
This is not ideal as at 10000Hz a mm here or there is quite a lot in terms of alignment error.
So here is how they look in place
So far, with a just a quick listen I quite like what I hear.
Def. needed to time align and measure before and after to see what if going on.
What I am hearing is more presence in the very upper registers - no shit, you'll say, that's what I expected!
I shit you not!
Of course it could all be my eyes fooling my ears with these big white things on, or just knowing they are there, hehe...
Here are the first Raal Lazy ribbon measurement comparisons of the waveguide. Taken at 1m on axis.
1. With waveguide in red / without waveguide in green. Shown at 1/6 octave.
2. Zoomed in on the 10K-22KHz range and shown in 1/40 octave to really try to bring out the detail of what's going on!
So on the much higher 1/N, we can see 2 significant areas of flattening with the waveguide. The 11-12.5K region (where I can still hear), and the 15.5K - 17KHz region (where I can hear significantly less).
Some relative suck out at 14KHz with the guide.
The whole freq range is amazingly flat really, even at 1/40 no deviation of more than +/-5dB really! Apart from the 14KHz region, with the waveguide on makes them even less deviant.
One reason they are so smooth and nice to listen too? - they measure well. Perhaps I should measure the JBL2405's and Rough Eminence tweeters as well - ah another day.
The waveguide gives a boost of some 5 dB - Not insignificant! I do have to back the volume off quite a bit with the guide on...
Just took delivery of another add-on to try.
Can you guess what they are for.
Wife though some kind of weird urinal. Daughter said some kind of guide for the butt...
Some wood chopping to make mounts that will fit them. More birch ply and table sawing.
Today I made some new lash up holders for the tweeters and provision to secure the wave guides.
As noted they are extremely nicely made, very solid and nicely weighted.
So far I have just plonked them down and with rough (by measurement where they were on the previous holders) alignment.
This is not ideal as at 10000Hz a mm here or there is quite a lot in terms of alignment error.
So here is how they look in place
So far, with a just a quick listen I quite like what I hear.
Def. needed to time align and measure before and after to see what if going on.
What I am hearing is more presence in the very upper registers - no shit, you'll say, that's what I expected!
I shit you not!
Of course it could all be my eyes fooling my ears with these big white things on, or just knowing they are there, hehe...
Here are the first Raal Lazy ribbon measurement comparisons of the waveguide. Taken at 1m on axis.
1. With waveguide in red / without waveguide in green. Shown at 1/6 octave.
2. Zoomed in on the 10K-22KHz range and shown in 1/40 octave to really try to bring out the detail of what's going on!
So on the much higher 1/N, we can see 2 significant areas of flattening with the waveguide. The 11-12.5K region (where I can still hear), and the 15.5K - 17KHz region (where I can hear significantly less).
Some relative suck out at 14KHz with the guide.
The whole freq range is amazingly flat really, even at 1/40 no deviation of more than +/-5dB really! Apart from the 14KHz region, with the waveguide on makes them even less deviant.
One reason they are so smooth and nice to listen too? - they measure well. Perhaps I should measure the JBL2405's and Rough Eminence tweeters as well - ah another day.
The waveguide gives a boost of some 5 dB - Not insignificant! I do have to back the volume off quite a bit with the guide on...
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