Bel Canto

[Ya-Boo]

But a Bryston 3B SST is £1900 and you'd need two of them to give you equal power/channels to an eVo4. If the eVo is overpriced than I guess a hell of a lot of other gear is too. Matt.

Matt
never heard the bryston,yes imo most high end stuff is way overpriced,
case of what the market will stand here in rip off Britain
remember the Evo 4 is only £2.5K stateside........if priced like that here
they would be hugely popular one suspects

All I,m saying is at the £4K price point there are serious bits of kit available
B/c get a lot of mention on the forum, bloody good yes,but not the be all and end all,

 

[Robbo]

've heard two different BCs with and without mains treatment (transformer based and cable based) and the difference, if any, was negligible.

Thats odd. I have heard an evo4 in my own system with and without a transformer based mains conditioner and was shocked at the difference with the conditioner in place.

 

[wadia-miester]

I've heard two different BCs with and without mains treatment (transformer based and cable based) and the difference, if any, was negligible.

Michael.

Now Micheal, I think you may want to re assess that, I think your exact words at the time were 'Shit, no way' when the said unit was removed
More than happy to re-create the demonstration at any time, with the same transformer, though things have moved Substancially on since then, and your welcome to try the NEXT level at ANY TIME.

 

[michaelab]

WM, who says I was talking about your B/C? Anyway, that was a cable change and I was still in my naive, "imagine changes when there really aren't any" time

Michael.

 

[wadia-miester]

I wrote a seriously reply but the PC just ate it, so I'm not doing it again.

The Belcanto is not the greatest thing since sliced bread for sure, (but a viable, high quality alternitive that opens ups avenues to people that wouldn't have realised that this level of preformance is attainable) then niether is the Graff or the BP, to be honest only 2 valve amps I've heard are worthy of that contenders for that title the Manley Mono blocks Hahi? or the soul amp 30 watter.
Choosing an amp is individual thing weather looking for Liquidic & natural midrange, rich vocal textures or total driver & bass control, each person selects the amp to suit the way it sits in his/hers PERSONAL system, (hopefully demo'd at home over a suffient length of time)
AS for the B/C not timing, TOTAL & UTTER BOLLOX, it has more interest, power/groove and bass control and non hardness than ANY naim amp (or relevent amp around it price range and far above) , including a pair of Nap 500's Happy to demo no probs.
Grainy again COBBLERS, I've installed over 16 (Stock units in the last 12 months) NEVER once have I had grain, the systems were in wide price brackets & room dimensions. I suggest (Boldly) you have other issues in your system.
As for not doing other musical gener's, again Male cow excrection, many a B/C are happily playing Classical/trad jazz and acoustic music to a very high standard and partnered with some top notch kit, and after the owners have tried & used many a top brand amplifier too. I'll again suggest an issue else where in the system that hasn't been addressed.
As for power measures not working, the B/C is in essence a bloody big dac A<>D<>A converter, and leads & conditioners make not too shabby difference
Maybe it gets lots of mentions on this forum due to extremely happy owners, who want to tell people about them

 

[Matt F]

If the BC E4 has any short comings timing isn't one of them

AS for the B/C not timing, TOTAL & UTTER BOLLOX, it has more interest, power/groove and bass control and non hardness than ANY naim amp (or relevent amp around it price range and far above) , including a pair of Nap 500's Happy to demo no probs.

That's what I thought and that's why I called the guy on the Naim forums a joker.

My name is spelt Lawrie not Laurie.

Sorry Lorry

Matt.

 

[johnhunt]

well said tony and matt although listening to my evo 4 it'd easy to think, especially given the cost , that they're the savioir of hifi and a severe kick up the arse to locally krell but over here naim/linn et al.

how long before arcam do something similar for even less. after all they haven't got a high end customer base to betray. if i was them i would

 

[Ya-Boo]

[/QUOTE]
As for not doing other musical gener's, again Male cow excrection, many a B/C are happily playing Classical/trad jazz and acoustic music to a very high standard and partnered with some top notch kit, and after the owners have tried & used many a top brand amplifier too. I'll again suggest an issue else where in the system that hasn't been addressed.[/QUOTE]


I Didnt say It could'nt do other Gener's, merely suggested it's presentation
favors Rock,

[/QUOTE]Maybe it gets lots of mentions on this forum due to extremely happy owners, who want to tell people about them[/QUOTE]


I have to say you praise Belcanto Amp's more than Belcanto's own advertising dept do ........that's not meant as a cheap jibe,indeed I certainly would not of considered demoing one let alone buying one before
joining this forum,my guess is this would apply to more than just one or two
B/C owners who visit here.

I have not noticed any grain with mine incidently.

 

[johnhunt]

AS for the B/C not timing, TOTAL & UTTER BOLLOX, it has more interest, power/groove and bass control and non hardness than ANY naim amp (or relevent amp around it price range and far above) , including a pair of Nap 500's Happy to demo no probs.

tony - that i'd love to hear

 

[johnhunt]

to pick up another comment of tony's - the bc foes 'rock' music well i suppose although i don't listen to much to that stuff. it does do jazz very well and as a mid ground is doing stop making sense very well as i type

 

[bottleneck]

I think when the guy said it doesnt ''time'' like a Naim amp, he meant it doesnt ''sound'' like a Naim amp - or a valve amp.

If you put it that way, having a preference for something else sounds a lot more feasable.

I guess there isnt a universal panacea of an amplifier for everyone! (no shit sherlock!)

NB I dont believe he thought it was a bad amp - or he wouldnt have demo'd it at home surely?

Personally, I think its a great amp. Loads of power, clean, very open. Whether thats what you want in an amp, million dollar $$ question!


chris

 

[sideshowbob]

The poster on the Naim forum uses, it would appear, Naim amps, a bel canto, and a SET. He prefers both the SET and Naim to the BC. Hardly a standard Naimie then. And since he owns a BC I suppose he's entitled to say whatever he likes about it.

Anyway, why care what someone else thinks?

-- Ian

 

[Lawrie]

I agree 100%, with lawrie I,ve used a benchmark DAC1 before the AA, the later is far more agreeable to my ears,vocals are the most noticable area of improvement, that said either benchmark & Belcanto are both stunning bit's of kit,certainly would wake up a system requiring extra detail and life.

would take care though if anything bright side of neutral is not your thing.

Belcanto Evo 4 is hugely powerful, but it's presentation suit's Rock more imo
great amp, well over priced @£4K though

Ya-Boo,

All I can say is that I take my my hat off to you sir for you as a Bel Canto Evo4 owner did not act all defensive and abusive when you saw my comments, instead you agreed with (some of) them. It's a very rare thing especially on this forum where negative comments about a particular component is regarded as a hanging offence.

In general:

I have read through the other comments and it's interesting to see how defensive (and abusive) people can get. As Bottleneck summised, the Naim poster appreciated what the Bel Canto does but basically preferred Naim amplification for certain aspects that he felt the Bel Canto was weak on. I am in a similar position, in that no matter how hard I tried, I could not hear the valve-like qualities in the amp. The closest I would say that the Bel Canto Evo amps get to a valve sound is that the manufacturer used to make SET amps and is just trying to capitalize on that link. From where I am sitting, it's all about the midrange and based on my experiences and preferences, I would say that Ya-Boo and Adam have it just about right with those amps with valves in the mix. Would I own a Bel Canto amp? Well yes, but only with a tube pre or tube CD player.

In terms of the amp requiring transformer based power conditioners to sound (very) good, well I would suggest that the manufacturer, Bel Canto, returned to the drawing board and re-examined their power supply designs. The fact that the transformer based power conditioner is a prerequisite for good sound on the Bel Cantos suggests to me that the amps and the whole digital amplification thing is still a work-in-progress. Btw, which transformer based power conditioners do you guys use with those amps and what's the cost?



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[merlin]

Lawie,

I don't use a BelCanto, just heard the effects of power conditioning on a variety of switching amplifiers and have formed the opinion that they are unimpressive to my ears without it. Add a Ben Duncan/ Trichord for about £500 or better still a 2K cube and my experience suggests these still represent excellent value for money.

I use valves for midrange up, and switching amplification for bass duties. I'd agree that the mids on most PWM amps are to be found lacking - I would however point out that this is barely noticable with power conditioning. It does not take a genius to understand why, just someone without blinkers on.

But it's horses for courses, and you may not like the results. I on the other hand, tend to fall asleep at the very thought of Karan's products and even find the majority of CJ kit massively overpriced (care of Audiofreaks rip off pricing)

 

[leonard smalls]

and even find the majority of CJ kit massively overpriced (care of Audiofreaks rip off pricing)

Looks like you'll be off Branco's prospective customer list.
No you can't buy one, even if you pay even more over the odds!

 

[Lawrie]

Condition your power.

Ah, Merlin,

Long time no speak, my friend, and glad to see you are still around. Have you been on holidays? Anyway, glad to see that we are, at least, singing off the same hymn sheet with our blinkers removed, whilst still trying to keep things civil. The Bel Canto does wake up with a good power conditioner in the mix (although it still does not sound like a valve amp) but I preferred not to dwell on that aspect of it. IMO, it should sound excellent on its own and a power conditioner should not be a necessary addition to it especially at their current retail prices. The power conditioner should be an optional extra, not an absolute requirement for good sound. So in addition to the cost of the amp, Bel Canto owners should also budget for a GBP 500+ power conditioner before they can really hear what their amp can do? This world has really gone mad. Hence my comments about BC going back to the drawing board (and they are not the only ones). I know where you are coming from but was trying to see the other side, with blinkers removed, of course. Btw, are you familiar with the rugged-looking power conditioner in the picture?

So you use valves for mids, and switching amps for bass duties? Well, all I can say is that you are speaking my language Merlin and I can't believe that we are both agreeing here. What's your latest set-up including speakers?

As for the Karan effect, yes, it is very special indeed. A sound that is not quite valve, but not quite solid-state either, a sound that engages, relaxes, caresses and smoothes a hard day's stressful elements. An amp that can indicate what's wrong upstream or downstream and times much better than a Swiss watch, with excellent highs, mids & bass combined with bullet-proof build quality. That's what music listening is all about. By the way do you like Conrad Johnson gear? As for current U.K. pricing on Conrad Johnson stuff, again I agree with you and cannot believe what a raw deal my U.K. brothers are getting on a lot of things over there - higher prices, shorter warranties etc, etc. However, Audiofreaks are not the only sharks out there. There are quite a few fighting for market share over there.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

[sideshowbob]

Oh dear, I use a digital amp and have no power conditioning. Perhaps it doesn't sound any good. Then again, perhaps it does. Or does this conditioning requirement only apply to Bel Canto?

-- Ian

 

[merlin]

Looks like you'll be off Branco's prospective customer list.

I suspect I'm more likely to appear on the ignorant nob's hit list and should I ever get the opportunity to force his company into receivership, I will die a happy man.

Question. How many world class Power Amps feature heavily regulated (often off board) power supplies? How many of these cost as little as the BC or even the Tact, ES Labs, or Crown?

 

[grivois]

Acoustic Research

Or does this conditioning requirement only apply to Bel Canto?

I recently listened to my dealer's latest rave amp: an AR 300.2. It sounded terrific without any mains conditioning. It's midrange sounded liquide and natural, despite it featuring digital switching technology.

 

[Lawrie]

Oh dear, I use a digital amp and have no power conditioning. Perhaps it doesn't sound any good. Then again, perhaps it does. Or does this conditioning requirement only apply to Bel Canto?

-- Ian

I see Grivois has helped himself to my notes as he beat me to the post. No, I don't believe that it is endemic to all digital amps and the Audio Reseach digital amp example that Grivois gave is a good one as it sounds good even when connected directly to extension sockets (with no mains conditioning) and displayed a great midrange, great highs and good bass. Power conditioning is not a prerequisite with that amp so why should it be so for Bel Canto?

Hence my assertion that Bel Canto should revisit their power supply designs as that is one area that many audio designers overlook or don't pay sufficient attention to. Anyway, if your amp sounds good to your ears connected to the wall socket, then it sounds good, my friend.



Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.