better timing on my 300B SET

I also lived with Living Voice speakers for years. I think I had them for about 3 years, maybe 4.

I ran them with a variety of power amps. I favoured a 300B set amp, which kicked out 9w per channel. I only had 1 CD with which I could make the speakers clip. This CD has a double bass and very quiet piano only. At very high volume, the double bass could cause a clip. This CD was a one-off, at no other time could I cause the 9w amp to clip, even at very loud volumes.

I would reccomend that you experiment with a transformer based passive, and also a high quality active pre-amp. I have no experience whatever of transformer bassed passived, but have never been happy with a normal passive pre. They sound 'real' to me, but also flacid and limp wristed. I much prefer an active pre. Perhaps the thing to do would be to try both.

You may find Walrus stocking both the transformer based and active pre's. They certainly used to. (www.walrus.co.uk). They are certainly near to you.

JonJin's comments on speaker positioning are very relevant. These speakers like to be freestanding, and are fussy IMO about placement.

If you fancy the drive, Kevin at Definitive Audio (nottingham) is Mr Living Voice himself. Definitive is his shop. Im sure he'd be delighted to advise you on pre-amps that work well with his speakers. In his classifieds he has an eastern electric minimax which is an active pre, with a used price of about £400. It leaves little to criticise at the price I think.

Many people think that Living Voice speakers work particularly well with Border Patrol amps. This is true in my opinion - although the presentation can be a little 'forward' sounding for some. It is a case of horses for courses. I certainly enjoyed the combination. You may find that even a used BP amp stretches the budget too far.

A good 300B SE is the glasshouse amp (www.hificollective.co.uk). This kicks out about 12w in reality, and funnily enough it didnt clip my LV's when I tried it on the aforementioned piano& double bass CD. It has a warmer, more involving sound than the BP, without the snap and pace. It is a trade off. It works best IMHO when used with an active pre. I know the manufacturer, and he will build them up for you if you want, so youd be looking at around a grand for a built up 300B SE amp, which is great value. Hard to beat at that kind of price.

You've got a lot of options there.

Solid state fans often pair the LV's with DNM amps. Its not my cup of tea (if you cut me in half you'd find ''valve'' written through me like a stick of brighton rock) but its worth exploring if you're not sold on 'valves' per se.

Finally, Im sure SCIDB will be along to comment. He has also lived with LV speakers for a long time, and has tried them with lots of amps I know. His advice is normally worth listening to :)

Thanks again,

Chris
 
Hi,

boy_lah said:
guys! pls help me decide on this 300B SET amp I'm trying out.

10watt into my Living Voice OBX-Rs using a volume pot on the amp (no pre). i love many things it does esp the transparency but feel wanting more acceleration in the music - timing, start/stop, foot tapping rhtym...call it whatever you want.
Click to expand...

I think you want to "WASP" you speakers and possibly consider partially blocking the ports (socks?). If you change from an amplifier with a ton of feedback to keep the ouput impedance low to an SE Amplifier that is "power matched" you are pushing the LF up a few db which needs to be corrected, otherwise things sound "slow", the absolute minimum is to pull them at least 10" more clear of the rear wall, but because of the nature of room acoustics you really need to apply WASP or equivalent tuning.

Try that first.

Ciao T
 
Hi,

as chris (Bottleneck) has mentioned, I own a pair living Voice Avatar OBXs and a Border Patrol 300B amp. the amp is rated around 8-9 watts. I find the sound plenty loud enough in most cases.

If you are looking to buy a good single ended 300B then I suggest you have a listen to a Border Patrol. They offer excellent timing, resolution and detail. They respond well to better input sources and will provide hours of good listening.

There are many different Border Patrols in the range from the single box power supply 300B to two box power supplies single ended 300B to a range of 300B push pull amps.


http://www.borderpatrol.co.uk

I have been using a TVC based preamp as well. I own a Django TVC pre. This is a mighty fine piece of kit. I would try a TVC is you can get hold of one. They don't have the extra gain of some active pres but they do have better performance than a lot. Timing excellent on them.

BTW, which Art Audio is it. I have seen a few.

The Living Voice speakers are very good and if you like them then it may be a bit of a journey to find something overall better. There are more senitive speaker but these have their own weaknesses. Horns may be a way forward but you may find these ideal or too flawed.

I would try other 300B single ended amps such as the Border Patrol plus other quality 300B push pull amps. Try the Art Audio with an active pre to see if it does anything for. I looking into the positioning of the speakers as well if you have not done so.

The option of the Glasshouse amp kit is worth a look.

SCIDB
 
jojin - thanks mate. i hear you. Kevin says 200hrs gets you 80% of performance whilst 400 rings the last 20% out. The Hovland caps apparently takes forever.

hey, i notice you use isoclean. i too have a power conditioner but I found going direct was better in the timing stakes...more current flow? obviously you lose a bit of the darkness in sound. give it a try?
 
tony, ok.. you've got my attention. send something over. but i'm not a rock head so don't over do it with SLAM/Bass. Instead...lots of texture...organic sound with good start stop. I already have a valhalla and that sounded FAST but did not time better and you lose the texture (vs eg. Harmonix Studiomasters - which is what i'm using at the moment).
 
lots of options

bottleneck said:
I ran them with a variety of power amps. I favoured a 300B set amp, which kicked out 9w per channel. I only had 1 CD with which I could make the speakers clip. This CD has a double bass and very quiet piano only. At very high volume, the double bass could cause a clip. This CD was a one-off, at no other time could I cause the 9w amp to clip, even at very loud volumes.

I would reccomend that you experiment with a transformer based passive, and also a high quality active pre-amp. ....have never been happy with a normal passive pre. They sound 'real' to me, but also flacid and limp wristed. I much prefer an active pre. Perhaps the thing to do would be to try both.

JonJin's comments on speaker positioning are very relevant. These speakers like to be freestanding, and are fussy IMO about placement.

Chris
Click to expand...

On most music i don't miss the timing but on some, in particular things that rely on timing for drama e.g. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon's movie soundtrack - song 4, which are all drums...it just wasn't snappy enough to re-create that drama, the sense of 'urgency' that the song is trying to potray. I'm not sure if this is clipping but I don't hear enough snap - which is a critical component for emotional involvement.

big money to get a 'active' pre that doesn't overly-colour. But system matching at the end of the day. Still waiting for a Music First to try. My impression of normal passives exactly like yours...tonally dry, lack of dynamics, no emotion.

placement - same experience...I have mine 28-29inches out (60-70cm) from the back. But limited by the practicality of the room..but will keep trying.

what speakers are you using these days?
 
SCIDB said:
Hi,

as chris (Bottleneck) has mentioned, I own a pair living Voice Avatar OBXs and a Border Patrol 300B amp. the amp is rated around 8-9 watts. I find the sound plenty loud enough in most cases.

If you are looking to buy a good single ended 300B then I suggest you have a listen to a Border Patrol. They offer excellent timing, resolution and detail. They respond well to better input sources and will provide hours of good listening.

There are many different Border Patrols in the range from the single box power supply 300B to two box power supplies single ended 300B to a range of 300B push pull amps.


http://www.borderpatrol.co.uk

I have been using a TVC based preamp as well. I own a Django TVC pre. This is a mighty fine piece of kit. I would try a TVC is you can get hold of one. They don't have the extra gain of some active pres but they do have better performance than a lot. Timing excellent on them.

BTW, which Art Audio is it. I have seen a few.

The option of the Glasshouse amp kit is worth a look.

SCIDB
Click to expand...

hi SCIDB - it's not volume that i'm after...it's start/stop dynamics. this can happen even at low volume though i find the LV prefer to be played loud. It's just not as good at low volumes? :confused:

Haven't tried or heard a BP/Glasshouse but I'm guessing an Art Audio would be in similar league if not better. But I may be wrong. It's the 300B and the 10watt that I'm guessing is the problem. AA's transformer is way over spec'ed so it's not running out of steam?

It's the Art Audio Diavolo SE (WE300B edition - not the normal US VV32 version).

I find the LV's like width - lots of width...I've maxed it out already. :cool:
 
Hi,

boy_lah said:
On most music i don't miss the timing but on some, in particular things that rely on timing for drama e.g. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon's movie soundtrack - song 4, which are all drums...it just wasn't snappy enough to re-create that drama, the sense of 'urgency' that the song is trying to potray.
Click to expand...

I'd say interactions between amp, speaker and room.

Make sure to use the 4-Ohm amplifier tap if available.

boy_lah said:
big money to get a 'active' pre that doesn't overly-colour. But system matching at the end of the day. Still waiting for a Music First to try. My impression of normal passives exactly like yours...tonally dry, lack of dynamics, no emotion.
Click to expand...

Well, as I have some involvement with MF-Audio and the PMP I'd better not say to much, but it was conceived as concept by me and realised mainly by JB from S&B (credit also to John Chapman of Bent Audio and Brian Cherry of DIYHiFisupply) in order to break that "iron law"...

boy_lah said:
placement - same experience...I have mine 28-29inches out (60-70cm) from the back. But limited by the practicality of the room..but will keep trying.
Click to expand...

Keep trying, but try systematically.

I wrote about WASP ages back in TNT and it is possibly the most usefull and most secret page on TNT....

Here goes, TNT-Audio's best kept secret:

WASP: speaker placement made easy

Ciao T
 
boy lah, Ive had some luck with pre-amps (active ones).

I'm over the moon and exstatically happy with my hot-rodded Consonance Basie (http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_basie.htm). The transformer based pre-amp that Dean (SCIDB) uses is available from the same company.

Including all mods, I'd put my Basie at about £650.

I havent heard it, but a lot of people rave over the 'Grounded Grid' pre-amp (http://www.transcendentsound.com/preamp kit.htm). I trust some of their ears, so this looks like another good active.

These are all kits so far.

Glasshouse also do a decent active pre-amp kit. This will be dearer, but comes with an excellent phono stage. If you need a phono stage it would be worth thinking about (www.hificollective.co.uk)

For non-kit quality, you could try an Eastern Electric Minimax. This as mentioned is available for £400-£500.

I would ignore the prices on any of the above, and test them against any pre you like.

3dsonics (thorsten) mentioned an unusual active pre-amp that Im sure he would talk about if you sent him a PM.

If you cant get on with a transformer based pre, then its likely that a passive pre-amp isnt for you. They are supposed to be the best of the passives. Again though, I havent heard one yet myself.

I am currently using a vintage pair of Altec speakers. They use alnico Altec horns with 15" bass units. I aim to add JBL 2405 tweeters in the next 3-6 weeks. (http://zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4&page=37&pp=15)
 
3DSonics said:
Hi,

I'd say interactions between amp, speaker and room.

Make sure to use the 4-Ohm amplifier tap if available.
Ciao T
Click to expand...

I am currently using the 4-Ohm amp tap. it has 4 and 8 Ohms...how do i know which is better for what speakers? the LV is rated 6 ohms but i presume that's an average?
 
mine worked best on the 4 ohm tap. one tap normally sounds better than the other for a given pair of speakers.
 
boy_lah said:
hi SCIDB - it's not volume that i'm after...it's start/stop dynamics. this can happen even at low volume though i find the LV prefer to be played loud. It's just not as good at low volumes? :confused:
Click to expand...

This is why you should have a listen. They do dynamics well. both push pull & single ended.


boy_lah said:
Haven't tried or heard a BP/Glasshouse but I'm guessing an Art Audio would be in similar league if not better. But I may be wrong. It's the 300B and the 10watt that I'm guessing is the problem. AA's transformer is way over spec'ed so it's not running out of steam?
Click to expand...

I found the Border Patrol has more grunt than the Art Audio. It's not just down to the transformer. You have to look at many other factors. The power supplies are very important. For example, the Border many for the various types of the circuit. Also the type of power supply. the Border Patrol uses a choke input types which offer very good regulation and filtering. This sort of power supply is only used by a few people. One reason is the cost and it is harder to put in properly.

Also you have to look at how each valve is biased as well. Also the type of valve & Interstage transformers used to drive the output 300B is very important. This has a big bearing on the sound. Interstage transformers can give an valve amp good grip & drive to the sound but are costly.

An amp can run out of stream with good transformers. It will be the power supply (or supplies) that count for a lot of the sound.

Most 300B amps have the mid range but can be lacking on the extremes and soft in the dynamics. Some of the best ones I have heard have interstage transformers & choke input power supplies to give you good dynamics.

If you want to go down the 300B path, you need to listen to many as the have different design features.



SCIDB
 
SCIDB said:
This is why you should have a listen. They do dynamics well. both push pull & single ended.

I found the Border Patrol has more grunt than the Art Audio.

An amp can run out of stream with good transformers. It will be the power supply (or supplies) that count for a lot of the sound.

Most 300B amps have the mid range but can be lacking on the extremes and soft in the dynamics. Some of the best ones I have heard have interstage transformers & choke input power supplies to give you good dynamics.

If you want to go down the 300B path, you need to listen to many as the have different design features.

SCIDB
Click to expand...

hi SCIB,

Hmmm...having heard the Art Audio Diavolo, I think it's the fantastic if only it had more power/could do the timing thing better. It's amazingly transparent without being analytical, it's palpability is there but no artificially 'focused'. And on 'most' music, it timings is sufficiednt. But if you're right, i would be making a mistake not trying out a BP? Any particular model you would recommend with the LV OBX-R2s? Any dealer you would recommend? Prefer the small intimate ones...even if further afield.

ps - which Art Audio have you heard for comparions?
pps - what power supplies do the Art Audio use? i know they're zero feedback, dual mono.
 
personally I think you should go to definitive audio in nottingham.

Kevin stocks border patrol, art audio, canary, audionote etc.

if you're feeling lazy I believe he has a room at the heathrow show.


ps
I know you didnt ask me!
 
bottleneck said:
personally I think you should go to definitive audio in nottingham.

Kevin stocks border patrol, art audio, canary, audionote etc.

if you're feeling lazy I believe he has a room at the heathrow show.

ps
I know you didnt ask me!
Click to expand...

Been to Kevin already. :D and he was touting Art Audio - his current flavour of the month. But he was pushing the EL34 pentode or the 20watt, big £££ 4x300B SET. No 10watt Diavolo in sight. I guess there's good reason? Not good match?

I know he was really in BP at one stage but he's gone all quiet on them now - defected to US?
 
Hi,

boy_lah said:
I am currently using the 4-Ohm amp tap. it has 4 and 8 Ohms...how do i know which is better for what speakers? the LV is rated 6 ohms but i presume that's an average?
Click to expand...

Be empirical (in other words try both). Also, something normally not mentioned, by connecting the speaker between the 8R and 4R binding posts you get in effect a "1Ohm" tap. It does really limit maximum power but will control the lf drive systems resonance better. Worth just trying out for checks.

Ciao T
 


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