And Iran is three times the size of Iraq and has very difficult terrain. Moreover, it's certain that the population would stand united, the way they did against Saddam Hussein in Gulf War I - Saddam sought to take advantage of the fall of the Shah and the resulting confusion by exerting his claim to the whole of the Shatt al-Arab waterway. Had Saddam not used poison gas against the Iranians, he would have lost Basra and would probably have been toppled. The population was certainly united - even the exiled Crown Prince, a trained fighter pilot, was prepared to fight for the mullahs. Indeed the USA gave Saddam considerable help (they like to forget this now) because they wanted Iraq as a counterweight against Iran. At this time he was "our sonuvabitch", and therefore OK and his misdeeds ignored.greg said:Attacking Iran will be far more like Desert Storm. There's little doubt they'll put up significant traditional resistance. However these days Guerilla (AKA insurgance) warfare tactics are very effective. It will not be a clean affair and will probably lead to the widest level of Islamic resistance against the West ever seen.
Perhaps, but perhaps not. Part of the driving force is the sheer hypocrisy of the west. Iran is not allowed a bomb - but Israel is. Another clear case of "our sonuvabitch". Moreover, all the neighbours in a dangerous neighbourhood - Pakistan, India, China - have nuclear weapons. In Iran's place, I'd want one (at least) too. I suspect that the Iranian behaviour is simply bombast, as was Saddam's.Conversely the way Iran is conducting itself now if there is no military intervention we could see a very nasty turn for the worst in the Middle East (from the perspective of the typical Western world view of course).
I think it goes back to his conversion from the demon drink, Steve, which is 'way back before he became a national figure in the USA (before even becoming Governor of Texas, I think).7_V said:We all know that George W Bush is a Christian fundamentalist. Presumably he must be because so many people say that he is. Even Jeremy Paxman asked Tony Blair whether they'd prayed together.
Where did this start and what is the actual evidence that George W Bush is a fundamentalist?
Regards
Steve
Tone, What exactly do you mean by "I don't need to tell you what currently occupies the site..."tones said:There is a lot of US Fundamentalist support for movements such as this:
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/
I don't need to tell you what currently occupies the site...
There's only one way - Israel should be whacked around the head until it allows the creation of a viable Palestinian State within secure borders, and the Jewish State should have the same right. Once that is achieved, most of the Middle East problem will vanish overnight.
The current occupant of the site is the Dome of the Rock, Islam's third holiest shrine after Mecca and Medina, from where the Prophet was received into heaven. Some years ago, an Australian fanatic actually tried to set fire to the Dome of the Rock in order to make way for the new Temple.7_V said:Tone, What exactly do you mean by "I don't need to tell you what currently occupies the site..."
No, it's not the basis for my fear, but it's an indication of what I see as the dangerously one-sided (and one-eyed) US relationship with IsraelHowever, if that site is the basis of your fear of a dangerous Bush-linked Christian fundamentalism, I wouldn't worry. The site you linked to has a Google page ranking of 5, which for popularity puts it roughly on a par with the Seventh Veil home page.
I regard this as obvious. Israel is a master practitioner at the ignoble art of state terrorism (apartheid era South Africa was the same). Now I do not dispute Israel's right to exist within secure borders and at peace with its neighbours. Whether it actually should exist at all is another question, which is now moot, because it does, end of that story. But for a nation whose people who suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis to turn round and dish out similar treatment to another people on the basis of race is to me completely wrong.Personally, I'd be more concerned by the paranoia that leads you to state that Israel is "the world's second worst terrorist organisation after the USA".
Thank you!However, I'm particularly impressed by your proposed solution to the issue of Iranian nukes:
Not quite what I said! The main problem is and has always been Israel. Were Israel not so intransigent, I suspect that neither would these other people. Injustice always begets injustice and it's stored up for the future. What if Syria received back the Golan Heights? Would it still be anti-Israel? I doubt it. And without national support the terrorist organisations such as those you named would dry up more or less completely. You will never satisfy everyone, of course, there will alway be the nutcases who want martyrdom or someone else's property but most of the problem can be solved politically. And Iran's just big-noting itself - and none of the Arab countries really trust non-Arab, predominantly Shi'ite Iran and are unhappy that the Americans removed Saddam Hussein, seen in the Arab world as the counterweight to Iran.So we whack Israel around the head until Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Syria, Iran and all her other enemies agree that 'The Jewish State should have the same right' (to exist within secure borders). Yup, that makes sense.
Yes, it was, wasn't it? Now, where's that tux for the Nobel ceremony?Excellent stuff, Tones.
You know what's great fun to do if you're on, say, a flight from Chicago to New York and you're getting a little bored? Why not play being Mr. Ahmadinejad? Stand up and yell in a loud voice, "I've got a bomb." Next thing you know the air marshal will be telling people, "It's OK, folks. Nothing to worry about. He hasn't got a bomb." And then the second marshal would say, "And even if he did have a bomb it's highly unlikely he'd ever use it." And then you threaten to kill the two Jews in row 12 and the stewardess says, "Relax, everyone. That's just a harmless rhetorical flourish." And then a group of passengers in rows four to seven point out, "Yes, but it's entirely reasonable of him to have a bomb given the threatening behavior of the marshals and the cabin crew."
I wondered how long it would take to get to the Israel=Nazi argument. I don't intend to get into further discussion of that nature on a hi-fi site.tones said:... But for a nation whose people who suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis to turn round and dish out similar treatment to another people on the basis of race is to me completely wrong.
Nonsense. However, that's your view so there's not much point debating is there?Not quite what I said! The main problem is and has always been Israel. Were Israel not so intransigent, I suspect that neither would these other people. Injustice always begets injustice and it's stored up for the future.
Of course not. After all, when Syria was lobbing shells down on Israeli kibbutzes from the Golan prior to 1967, it wasn't anti-Israel, was it?What if Syria received back the Golan Heights? Would it still be anti-Israel? I doubt it.
I agree with Senator McCain's proposal that Iran be thrown out of the World Cup. That would send a clear message to the Iranian people that Ahmadinejad's rantings are unacceptable and may even lead to a popular uprising against the government. When Iran defeated the USA 1-0 in the group phases (a couple of world cups ago) there was partying on the streets of Tehran for days afterwards. They didn't even qualify.Will said:Again, I'm not advocating war as the necessary option at this time - but so many people seem to chastising the US and Israel as the aggressors in this case, and bending over backwards to justify or apologise for the behaviour of Iran, when Irans behaviour is still so clearly out of line with the wishes of the vast majority of the international community.
Because of the accuracy of the comparison, perhaps?7_V said:I wondered how long it would take to get to the Israel=Nazi argument. I don't intend to get into further discussion of that nature on a hi-fi site.
If that's your attitude, I guess not.Nonsense. However, that's your view so there's not much point debating is there?
Times have and do change. The Middle East has changed and is changing. The "Economist" once put it very nicely - Israel v. the Arabs is a David v. Goliath struggle - with Israel as Goliath. Ultimately the Arab regimes are realists - how many of them are really determined to help the Palestinians at the expense of their own national interests? It's reminiscent of the old joke about Colonel Quaddafi - he was prepared to fight to the last Egyptian for the liberation of Palestine. And if a realistic solution to the Israel v. Palestine problem were on the table, I'll bet they'd take it after some face-saving groaning and moaning.Of course not. After all, when Syria was lobbing shells down on Israeli kibbutzes from the Golan prior to 1967, it wasn't anti-Israel, was it?
I don't recall hearing that the Israelis have rounded up millions of Palestinian men, women and children, put them into cattle trucks and transported them to death camps where they have been stripped, gassed, had any gold fillings removed and been cremated.tones said:Because of the accuracy of the comparison, perhaps?7_V said:I wondered how long it would take to get to the Israel=Nazi argument. I don't intend to get into further discussion of that nature on a hi-fi site.
I thought I detected some heat in the conversation and it becomes now clear, and I can understand why and sympathise. Naturally Israel has never resorted to a Final Solution, and I'm sure it never would, and I apologise for any implication that it ever would - this was not intended. However, in my opinion, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis resembles the treatment and routine humiliation of the Jews at the start of the Nazi era, before the Nazi state decided on the Endlösung. This surprises me constantly about Israel, a democratic state with humane values. It was more understandable in more dangerous times, surrounded by a much more hostile Arab world. But that has changed, and I think that Israel has everything to gain and little to lose by extending the hand of friendship. This is one of the very fundaments of Judaism, a great religion that also gave the world Christianity and Islam. Remember G-d's commandment to Moses before the Israelites crossed into the Promised Land - be kind to aliens (foreigners) and allow them to share in the prosperity of the land "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt" (Deut.24:22)7_V said:I don't recall hearing that the Israelis have rounded up millions of Palestinian men, women and children, put them into cattle trucks and transported them to death camps where they have been stripped, gassed, had any gold fillings removed and been cremated.
That is what 'Nazi' means to a Jew like myself.
Comparisons between Israelis and Nazis are hugely in error because of the scope, scale, actions and intentions. The sickness I feel when thinking about it is the reason that I don't wish to discuss it further, Tone, not because of the 'accuracy of the comparison'.
I don't think the Arab world is less hostile to Israel now, Tone, and certainly not Syria whom you mentioned earlier.tones said:...It was more understandable in more dangerous times, surrounded by a much more hostile Arab world.
I quite agree that using the term Nazi is not relevant. Though considering the catastrophic treatment of European Jews over many hundreds of years, it seems questionable that a nation created as a sanctuary from such treatment should treat another people in the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The acts of terrorism inflicted upon Israel are in no way justified, but, like the Irish Republican terrorists, those in Palestine see these acts as the only weapon available against a powerful and unjust occupier.7_V said:I don't recall hearing that the Israelis have rounded up millions of Palestinian men, women and children, put them into cattle trucks and transported them to death camps where they have been stripped, gassed, had any gold fillings removed and been cremated.
That is what 'Nazi' means to a Jew like myself.
Comparisons between Israelis and Nazis are hugely in error because of the scope, scale, actions and intentions. The sickness I feel when thinking about it is the reason that I don't wish to discuss it further, Tone, not because of the 'accuracy of the comparison'.
greg said:The acts of terrorism inflicted upon Israel are in no way justified, but, like the Irish Republican terrorists, those in Palestine see these acts as the only weapon available against a powerful and unjust occupier.
Some very interesting points Steve, I'll endevour to research the accounts you refer to. I think I didnt make myself clear - all acts of terrorism are deplorable of course. I'm simply pointing out that many ordinary Palestinians probably explain the acts of terrorism in those terms. The perspective on whether a terrorist is a criminal or a freedom fighter depends on which side of the fence one sits and the level of education and awareness. It is clear indoctrination of young Palestinians makes it likely most would see suicide bombers as martyrs.7_V said:Sorry Greg, I don't buy that. The Palestinians could choose to talk or negotiate. Not for nothing is it said that "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
The Palestinian income per capita is amongst the lowest on Earth but the aid they've received per capita is by far the highest in human history.
They could have used the billions of aid dollars to develop their infrastructure, their economy, their schools and their hospitals. They could farm their land, develop their industries and look after their refugees. In fact they could do all the things that they've told the EU and the USA that they would do if they got the money. Instead they've used it to make a few corrupt officials very rich indeed and to pay for terrorism and to the families of suicide bombers and prisoners.
Read accounts of the various tri-part negotiations that have taken place in Camp david or Oslo with the Americans, Israelis and Palestinians. Don't read the Israeli, American or Palestinian accounts though, read the accounts by Saudi or Jordanian negotiators who were present. Look deeply enough and you'll see the truth. Don't think that terrorism is or was their only option.
Murdering civilians is beyond condemnation. I cant offer anything useful to say about itEven if the Palestinians wanted to fight instead of talk, they could choose to use their suicide bombers against military targets. I despise terrorism against civilians full stop. For the record, I despise the IRA or any other terrorists, as well and this includes the relatively few, early Jewish attacks against the British.
I didnt say that. I just dont accept that Israel act in a responsibe manner as a nation. The spotlight is on them because of the history of the Jews treatment in Europe, that cant be avoided. The process of the creation of modern Israel has created more problems than it has solved IMO.As for your view that the Jews should be better because of "catastrophic treatment over hundreds of years"...
Bollocks.
Why should European anti-semitism give the aggressors the right to tell the victims how they should be?
I didnt compare the IRA to Palestinian terrorists in terms of the number of attacks or the mode of attack, I simply compared the mentality of "freedom fighters" who dont see themselves for what they are - terrorists.Sorry Greg but despite the IRA, the UK hasn't experienced terrorism on anything like the same scale as the Israelis (relative to their population sizes). I wonder how things would be if there were a couple of hundred 7/7 attacks in a two or three year period. How might the 'anti-racist' British treat their Muslim minorities then?
Quality7_V said:...Since then I married a German lady and have two half-German children. So now I...
... bloody hate the Kraut bastards again.