Floorstanders-£500 max

well, in all honesty mate I would have said that the original CDMSE's I heard needed a bit of a belt to get them moving aswell. The Talismans were ... 89db from memory, which isnt that bad.

I really do like to see speakers whipped to within an inch of their lives though - it really wakes em up.

Thats the problem with a lot of speakers (nearly all!!) they need a shit-load of power to sound good.

I know its very untrendy to reccomend mission! shock horror! but with a 50w amp, the 753's I heard sounded belting.

You might want to PM badchamp about those Audio Physics. Maybe they can sing without too many watts. I think that is probably quite likely, as Badchamp had a 20w amp. Although that was a valve amp. Its a helluva price he's got them offered at IMHO.

At the end of the day, theres quite a few bargains listed above, its just a case of trying to match system/room requirements and taking a punt if you cant hear them first I guess.


Good luck
Chris

 

Nothin wrong with recomending missions! Great speaker company IMO. Very easy to drive too, my 95watt marantz drives the largish m53's with ease. I must confess i am craving after a pair of Monitor Audio S8's at the mo, heard them in a shop and was thoroughly impressed, abit leaner but alot cleaner than the missions, midrange detail was fantastic.


Ultra

 

you are right Bottleneck,they don't sound very good until 10 oclock,they aren't much fun at "kids in bed" listening levels

I have pmed him re the Sparks,and made an offer,we shall see (the wife hasnt changed her mind,i even went on a National Trust walk looking at trees and other green things,but nope,she didnt relent-the lounge is spoilt she says-damn the House Doctor)

 

I have found invariably most speakers sound better when given a bit of welly.

The rationale behind it is the non linear response of the ear, and is partly the reason big speakers sounding worse at low levels.

Just like a japanese loudness control, speakers for low volume listening, proacs and harbeths, have the bass and treble boosted, and the mid recessed.

Check out the fletcher munson curves for the ears response.

If it has a flat response like largish floorstanders, it may sound a bit as though it needs to be driven.

I have found missions very much to need welly.

 

Also the mass of the speaker cones is much more important at low listening levels - the cone approximates much better to an ideal massless piston at higher volume levels. Hence fine detail which at low levels is lost due to the oomph you need to get the cones moving at all is resolved much better.

This is the reason why the virtually massless electrostatic drivers perform much more successfully at low levels - their response is virtually ideal in this respect regardless of the volume.

 

By and large Ive found standmounts to be more difficult to drive than floorstanders. Tends to be reflected in their published figures.

I can think of just 1 standmount with 90db+ efficiency, but about 10 floorstanders.

The 753 and 751 are frequently mentioned by hifi world as having benign load characteristics.

Chris

 

I have not heard from Badchamp yet,so I have started looking at Ruark Talisman II and Kef Concerto 2

anyone got an opinion on these 2 speakers?

 

Hi Chris, I didn't mean ease of drive as such, I meant the volume turned up a bit to apply a bit of volts and current, in order to get the sound going.

A short guide to speaker design...


Small speakers generally have the bass and treble raised a little, by making the cabinet a little smaller, or the port shorter, this boost the bass 'shelf'.

And for the tweeter, which is usually more sensitive, the resistor iin the crossover doesn't cut the treble as much, so you end up with a kind of 'dish' response, a la harbeth or proac.

This makes low level listening better, as you get more bass and top, like the effect of the loudness control.

also, small speakers have pretty small bass, so its boosted in order to make it sound punchier.

with large speakers, the thinking is that they are used in larger rooms, and higher volumes, so they are given a flatter response across the frequency band.

So at lower volumes they can sound reticent until 'driven' a little, ((as the bass is less raised or emphasised, though it will undoubtedly go deeper. Recall there are 2 aspects to bass.....volume, ie how much it is boosted in dbs, and frequency or depth in hertz)) even thoguht if they are easy to drive from a current demand point of view.

You have to remember there are a few issues here.

Voltage sensitivity, expressed in dbs. 89+ is quite good. This is how easily the speaker will go loud. Light cones and big magnets means lots of force applied to a light item, so more acoustic pressure, thus louder sound.

Current draw, is usually ease of drive, it places demands on the output transistors, the more transistors, the better the current, provided the amps transformer is big, and due to resistances in the amps psu, the voltage rails can fall upon heavy current draw.

It is at low frequencies the speaker draws the most current.

If you look at a speakers response, you will see both a frequency and a impedance,

The frequency respose will show the RELATIVE balance of freqencies against volume, so you may find the bass is louder than the mid, or the treble is louder, or the mid. this can be tailored to give a dersired emphasis on a partiular frequency via the cabinet size, port size, and crossover. the drive units can also influence this greatly. Materials, magnets, the lot.

the impedance is the opposite of current, so low impedance means big current.

Also a widely varying impedance will upset the stability of the feedback loop, so dodgy amps here may not like big variations here. this is also part of the ease of drive.

 

Hyperfi have been advertising the Kef Ref 1.2 for £699 for ages.

The advert quotes from WHF? (october 01). Five stars and group test winner against some B&Ws, Castle, Dynaudio, Epos, Linn, Mission and ProAc. They all prove their worth over £500-£600 speakers........the Kefs are consistantly strong right across the board, from build and finish, to sonic performance: as all round performers, they merit number one position in this test......... deeply impressive... nothing to criticise.

They're also advertising the mission 782 for £350 and the 783 for £500. Both of which are half their original rrp.

edited to add.... If you intend to use Hyperfi make sure you phone before traveling. Heard a lot of people say they advertise what they don't stock. And when I've tried speaking to them on the phone before I was put on hold for ages then told they didn't have what I was after. It was late in the day, and they didn't really seem interested in helping me.

 

I can't stand that nasal voiced prick in hyperfi.

I think its HIGHLY rude to say ,hello, can you hold the line please?

now I have lost patience with that sort of treatment, so I say, I am sorry I would rather not.

And whenever I have rung them, the have NEVER had anything I wanted, always tried to get me to get something else, which of course, if I wanted that one, I would have asked for that in the first place.

 

I'd have prefered it if they had at least asked if I'd like them to suggest something else. But it really did seem like they couldn't be arsed when I called them.

 

Agreed 100%.

I live about 3 miles away and been to the shop several times, often on the same day as the WHF came out with the latest ads and still not in stock. They claimed the ads were out of date and they've sold out.:grrr: :inferno:

 

deal is done

I am now the proud owner of some Audio Physic Spark,wife happy,I'm happy and hopefully Mr Badchamp is happy

 

and I have committed a sin,i have bought some kit without listening,but what the heck.I will soon find out what a Puccini Se,a 1070 and a pair of Sparks will sound like with Townshend Isolda.It sounds impressive,I hope it turns out that way

 

Hope so too!

 

what have i been missing??!! I don't have a lot of classical music,relatively speaking,but I like it in the collection,Rachmaninov in particular,and I haven't really enjoyed it with my old set-up,but.............bloody hell,the Sparks just make the music come alive,even at "kids in bed" listening levels (the CDM1SEs were great,played loud)

biggest difference is the base,i can't hear the speakers,just the music (i am glad i bought Michaelabs Isolda now)

simply superb

now for an amp and cdp that can do them justice (although i am happy with what i have heard this evening to be honest)

a great buy,cheers Jeff

 

What did I tell ya ?? They certainly liked my Goertz. Really pleased you like the Sparks. They do deserve to be more known. (And Mrs saab's reaction???). Was really sad to see em go but heyho onwards and upwards.

(Warning thread hijack !!)
Chris, I'm going to try :Von Schweikert VR-1 cos my new room is not of the most overwhelmingly cavernous dimensions and they apparently work pretty well fairly close to room boundaries. We shall see. I keep telling myself its only temporary until we get the extension built, knock the lounge through etc etc etc but hey, we've only been in the house 2 weeks

ATB
Jeff

 

Mrs Saab noticed the Isolda with the CDMs,proving she actually listens,has complimented the sound as a "considerable improvement" with the Sparks and is now happy that black ash is no longer in her house,so she can hold her head high at her next coffee morning

and thanks for the prod earlier