domfjbrown
live & breathe psy-trance
Bear in mind that your uncle didn't charge labour. Labour costs, and garages have overheads.
It's just like DIY versus bought hifi
It's just like DIY versus bought hifi
Good cars for peanuts
- Thread starter amazingtrade
- Start date
lhatkins
Dazed and Confused
Yep and I think the day of the DIY mechanic is coming to an end, today's cars with all there computers and eletrical gear need specialist test gear to do tests or adjustments and this gear isn't cheap, when I was working in a garage they spent about £20 - £30k on this type of equipment, this has to be paid for, thus labour costs, I will very rarely look at someones car if there is a problem, as its now likely to be a faulty sensor, adjustment or ECU problem which I don't have the gear for. Even doing jobs like replacing brakes and exhausts you have to be very careful because of all the sensors hanging around, just not worth it, take it to the professionals.
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
My uncle used to wire aeroplanes so car electrics are nothing to him, he can do basic machanical stuff like spark plugs, clutches and he replaced the engine on his Rover 25. I suppose what he probably can't do is stuff like stripping down gearboxes and stuff like that.
We were charged £60 for a new door handle last year, the cable was £5. There is no way it could have taken them long to do. It is stuff like that were you get ripped off. Stuff like the lambda sensor you don't mind paying a lot of labour for because like you say the test equipment is expensive.
It will be interesting to find out just how much profit a medium sized garage (i.e not one man mand mechanic) actually makes.
We were charged £60 for a new door handle last year, the cable was £5. There is no way it could have taken them long to do. It is stuff like that were you get ripped off. Stuff like the lambda sensor you don't mind paying a lot of labour for because like you say the test equipment is expensive.
It will be interesting to find out just how much profit a medium sized garage (i.e not one man mand mechanic) actually makes.
Sid and Coke said:BTW, i just got my new 'Dog Car' from the auction tonight. Vauxhall Astra 1.4 'merit', 4 months Tax, MOT good until 15 Aug 2005. Just drove it 40 miles home with no problems, everything seems to work , no funny noises, smells. Its filthy dirty inside but i'll soon fix that when i go back to work next week ( a small , well lit Aircraft Hangar on Night shift when you are 'in charge' is a great place to sort out and tidy up a shitty old car in the wee small hours,) Oh yeah the price £180. A cheap common car for a cheap common person, he, he
presumably thats mk3 (J to R reg)
lhatkins
Dazed and Confused
I can say from personal experience there is NO money in the Motor Trade, that is one of the reasons I got out of it, I know some can charge upwards of £50 an hour which is a heck of a lot, I don't know where the money all goes, but I know its not to the staff! Average mechanic wage I think was about £12k ish.
£60 for a door handle, well if they charged £50 an hour that would figure, can be a fiddly job, removing all the trim panels and everything else that's behind there, but I agree that is a bit steep, but not uncomon.
Its one of those things, if you know how something works you can appricate how long a job will take and how difficult it is, if you have no clue how a car works, you just think, oh that's not hard just chuck it in and then get surprised at the bill, something I used to witness on a regular basis.
£60 for a door handle, well if they charged £50 an hour that would figure, can be a fiddly job, removing all the trim panels and everything else that's behind there, but I agree that is a bit steep, but not uncomon.
Its one of those things, if you know how something works you can appricate how long a job will take and how difficult it is, if you have no clue how a car works, you just think, oh that's not hard just chuck it in and then get surprised at the bill, something I used to witness on a regular basis.
lhatkins
Dazed and Confused
Rory said:
Yep that sounds right to me, though if your completely anal about Vauxhalls (as I used to work there) J to M Mk3, N to R Mk3 facelift! sorry couldn't resist.
If you stuck to the 8 valve engines they were more than bullet proof, not uncomon to see some of our customers come in with engines that had been around the clock several times and still sweet.
I didn't like the new 16 valve ecotec engines, nothing but trouble, ECU problems, air flow meters, Timing belts that snap at 30k, totally rubbish wouldn't touch with a bardge pole. Avoid these engines from M to R years, I think they have improved them (though that wouldn't be hard) now.
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
I know the early zetecs suffered from sticky valves but draining the oil and usuing a different brand of petrol seemed to cure it. My dads never had any trouble. The Zetecs cam belts snap after around 80k, my dad got his replaced at 70k.
If a belt snaps on the 16 valve models and they snap thats a hec of a lot of valves to replace.
The door panal on the escort takes literly about 2 minutes to take off, I did really easy. The cable just attachs to the door and lock it seems quite simple for a mechanic as they are used to fidelly things. Also when they replaced the plugs they never bothered setting the gaps.
I think Mechanics are quite low paid, I am talking about proper mechanics here though the ones that know how the engine works inside out etc. They should be on at least £20k. However fitters is a different matter as in most cases its just manual work as they are not really doing any fault finding or very tricky stuff. It took my uncle 15 minutes to replace the full assembly exhaust yesterday on my grandads car and he is not a mechanic.
One of my university mates worked as a fitter for a year and he knows nothing about cars at all. He knows how to change plugs, break pads etc but ask him how an electronic ignition system worked he would have no idea.
I have the opposite problem I know how cars work and what all the bits are, but I have no idea how to actually changed the plugs or anything as I am usless at it. It took me 25 minutes just to change a wheel once!
If a belt snaps on the 16 valve models and they snap thats a hec of a lot of valves to replace.
The door panal on the escort takes literly about 2 minutes to take off, I did really easy. The cable just attachs to the door and lock it seems quite simple for a mechanic as they are used to fidelly things. Also when they replaced the plugs they never bothered setting the gaps.
I think Mechanics are quite low paid, I am talking about proper mechanics here though the ones that know how the engine works inside out etc. They should be on at least £20k. However fitters is a different matter as in most cases its just manual work as they are not really doing any fault finding or very tricky stuff. It took my uncle 15 minutes to replace the full assembly exhaust yesterday on my grandads car and he is not a mechanic.
One of my university mates worked as a fitter for a year and he knows nothing about cars at all. He knows how to change plugs, break pads etc but ask him how an electronic ignition system worked he would have no idea.
I have the opposite problem I know how cars work and what all the bits are, but I have no idea how to actually changed the plugs or anything as I am usless at it. It took me 25 minutes just to change a wheel once!
I would be wary of any middle aged cars with engine management, immobilers, and any other bollox designed simply to stop [cheap] generic garages from being able to maintain them. Renault for example.
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
Engine Management stuff can fail at any age really though especiualy the ECU unit. Its just a box of electronics isn't it? ECUs have been known to fail on newer cars as well.
I think Escort sized cars and anything smaller are fine they are still quite simple even with the ECU units. Its the larger cars such as Ford Scorpios, Rover 800s, maybe even Vectras and Mondoe I would avoid as they are known to be complex to fix and have unreliable wiring looms. An ECU/Electronic Ignition has to be better than a distrubutor that got damp in the winter so your car would never start.
I think Escort sized cars and anything smaller are fine they are still quite simple even with the ECU units. Its the larger cars such as Ford Scorpios, Rover 800s, maybe even Vectras and Mondoe I would avoid as they are known to be complex to fix and have unreliable wiring looms. An ECU/Electronic Ignition has to be better than a distrubutor that got damp in the winter so your car would never start.
lhatkins said:
my dad had the mk4 M reg 1.4 8v GLS as a company car. It was actually really really nice and felt really luxurious.
Someones given me a 1990 Granada recently and I like it so much, when that finally goes, I think i want the slightly newer facelifted model. Really is a superbly built, underrated car. So comfortable. Wouldn't mind the last of the frog mouthed Scorpios but as someone mentioned above, some ECU problems.
lhatkins
Dazed and Confused
Ya I did a stint in a Ford garage too just at the time when they where having a lot of cylinder head problems on the early Zetecs, ya that was fun lumping those things around.
Ya didn't know what car make or model you where talking about, I mean if it was a handle from a 7 series beamer for example you have to strip all the eletronics out, nightmare job.
Ya ECU's can fail at any time, especially when they're new, the early Vauxhall ECOTEC eletronics systems where a nightmare, had ECU's, Air Flow meters and wiring loom problems not to mention the engines, if the cam belt goes on one of them, its more than the valves get damage, it warps the head, takes out the valve guides, damages the pistons and all sorts of damage, its was actually cheaper to replace the head and at the time that was £2.5k per unit. The cambelt trouble was found to be caused by fault belt tensionors and there was a massive replacement program must have cost Vauxhall and small fortune so it begs the question why they fitted sub standard parts in the first place, total false eccomony.
Ya totally agree there is a huge difference between fitters and mechanics, not worked with fitters myself but yes replacing tyres and exhausts is not exactly brain surgery. In my opinion mechanics are just as important and should be as well paid if not better then most office workers, you have to fault find and work to a tight deadline, its a high skilled job and taken for granted most of the time.
The average sized or small garage can work on these cars when the manufacturers release the data, it just cost them a packet for the equipment and then having to keep updating it. I hate to say it but I think we'll see a lot of smaller garages going over to MoT and fitting stations as its quick and easy money and leave the eletronics to the main dealers, that will be a said day, but I think its coming.
Sorry my early comment about knowledge was a general one, not aimed at anyone.
Ya didn't know what car make or model you where talking about, I mean if it was a handle from a 7 series beamer for example you have to strip all the eletronics out, nightmare job.
Ya ECU's can fail at any time, especially when they're new, the early Vauxhall ECOTEC eletronics systems where a nightmare, had ECU's, Air Flow meters and wiring loom problems not to mention the engines, if the cam belt goes on one of them, its more than the valves get damage, it warps the head, takes out the valve guides, damages the pistons and all sorts of damage, its was actually cheaper to replace the head and at the time that was £2.5k per unit. The cambelt trouble was found to be caused by fault belt tensionors and there was a massive replacement program must have cost Vauxhall and small fortune so it begs the question why they fitted sub standard parts in the first place, total false eccomony.
Ya totally agree there is a huge difference between fitters and mechanics, not worked with fitters myself but yes replacing tyres and exhausts is not exactly brain surgery. In my opinion mechanics are just as important and should be as well paid if not better then most office workers, you have to fault find and work to a tight deadline, its a high skilled job and taken for granted most of the time.
The average sized or small garage can work on these cars when the manufacturers release the data, it just cost them a packet for the equipment and then having to keep updating it. I hate to say it but I think we'll see a lot of smaller garages going over to MoT and fitting stations as its quick and easy money and leave the eletronics to the main dealers, that will be a said day, but I think its coming.
Sorry my early comment about knowledge was a general one, not aimed at anyone.
lhatkins
Dazed and Confused
Rory said:
Ya the Granada was a nice car, remember my dad having a really early one, X reg I think 2.3 V6, for its day it had all the kit, eletric everything, PAS and some grunt as well, loads of leg room, very comfortable. Must admin I wasn't taken at first the new frog eye'd versions of these cars.
julian2002
Muper Soderator
i nearly got one of the 24v cosworth scorpios a while ago (i got the lexus instead) but the scorpio was a real contender at the price (about half that of the lex) they are a bit 'bling' on the inside but very comfortable and the 2.9 cossie was quick as f*ck even with a slushbox.
cheers
julian
cheers
julian
Lt Cdr Data
om
Its a conspiracy, you know, make em so complex, that the main dealer with his special trained people has to do any work on them, then charges you a bomb. Its all planned.
I once had a 2 litre 8 valve vauxhall cavalier, great engine, great autobox, too.
I once had a 2 litre 8 valve vauxhall cavalier, great engine, great autobox, too.
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
The handle is for the MK7 (last shape) Escort. The central locking dosn't work and the motor was disconnected so there was nothing really in the way. Also the switches for the windos are on the centre consule so taking of the panel is really really easy.
I think the problem with Scorpios on the used market is they will drink a bit of petrol, have quite high insurance costs and if things do wrong they won't be that cheap to fix. I guess most people looking at sub £2000 cars don't have much money so they may not be able to run a granada sized car this probably hurts the resale value. I guess the only thing thats really wrong them though is they don't have that BMW or Mercedes badge on them
I think the problem with Scorpios on the used market is they will drink a bit of petrol, have quite high insurance costs and if things do wrong they won't be that cheap to fix. I guess most people looking at sub £2000 cars don't have much money so they may not be able to run a granada sized car this probably hurts the resale value. I guess the only thing thats really wrong them though is they don't have that BMW or Mercedes badge on them
amazingtrade
Mad Madchestoh fan
Lt Cdr Data said:
I think certainly with the very new cars you have a point I mean I can't imagine many garages being able to come with even a new BMW 3 series. My mums friend has exactly the same car as us only its a P reg but still the same 1.6 Zetec engine. The bloke said he can't fix it because its too modern.
Lt Cdr Data
om
r u any the more enlightened as to what to go for yet?
amazingtrade said:I think the problem with Scorpios on the used market is they will drink a bit of petrol, have quite high insurance costs and if things do wrong they won't be that cheap to fix. I guess most people looking at sub £2000 cars don't have much money so they may not be able to run a granada sized car this probably hurts the resale value. I guess the only thing thats really wrong them though is they don't have that BMW or Mercedes badge on them
well i get nearly 38mpg out of my 2.0 DOHC efi engine which ain't bad, although I don't take it above 2000rpm! If i was to get a newer one, it'd be the 2.0, although the 2.3 is supposed to be a really good engine.
had a look on Scorpio forums and its not hard to get single figure mpg figures out of the 24v cossie
