Twas ever thus, though. I recall many years ago Chris Frankland responding to a reader who wrote in to say he preferred the sound of his Japanese direct drive turntable to that of an LP12: 'Your ears clearly aren't ready to appreciate high-end audio' or some such twattery. Just possibly, of course, the reader's tastes were different to Frankland's, and his ears didn't need 'educating'.
HiFi+
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Twas ever thus, though. I recall many years ago Chris Frankland responding to a reader who wrote in to say he preferred the sound of his Japanese direct drive turntable to that of an LP12: 'Your ears clearly aren't ready to appreciate high-end audio' or some such twattery. Just possibly, of course, the reader's tastes were different to Frankland's, and his ears didn't need 'educating'.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Might be worth pointing out that the opposite of the quoted conversation is also fairly common. As in: dealer ... "This new XXX looks and sounds really great, how much do you expect it to retail for?" .... distributor/manufacturer "probably about £1500", dealer ... "are you sure? That seems very expensive (thinking of competitor products), I'm not sure you'll sell very many at that price".
Dealers know what is available on the market, and have a reasonable idea what will and won't sell at what price. Products being too cheap is less common than their being too expensive ... or as seems to be the case with some products recently suddenly getting a lot more expensive. Products which offer a lot of performance for less than you would expect tend to sell well, not the reverse.
Also what holds true at the very top of the market doesn't hold true further down. Some statement products may sell next to nothing. It doesn't really matter, its not the point of them. Back in the real world end of the market a difference in price of say £100 for something like a cartridge will have a big impact on potential sales.
Price elasticity is different at different points in the market and isn't something all manufacturers and distributors understand. For example the prices of a reasonably popular item we deal with has just gone up 50%. I know this will likely kill sales dead. Mentioning this was greeted with a shrug of the shoulders.
Personally I think one of the major problems with the industry is in fixating on chasing the big ticket end of the market, they have abandoned the entry level. How many options do you have if you want to buy a £1500 plus turntable? How many do you have if you want to buy a £250 turntable? You may make less money in a £250 turntable ... but you will potentially sell a heck of a lot more of them. (I just use turntables as an example of which I'm familiar)
Ironically enough, ahead of all the megabucks reviews in HiFi+, in his 'playing the system' piece RG mentions some very inexpensive turntable packages, including the Project Genie2, complete with tonearm and Ortofon cartridge at £140!
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
As of now, not many (if any). But the Genie might spur others to produce similar budget models - RG mentions the Thorens Mini at 300 Euros in the same article.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
You would think ... but on the other hand Pro-Ject have been making (and selling lots of ) Debuts for 10 years. It doesn't seem to have stimulated many others to step up to the line (Goldring tried and then stopped). It could be that in one sense making a good but relatively cheap turntable is a far more difficult engineering and manufacturing problem than making yet another £1500 spinner.
Thorens have been in the budgetish end several times in the last 10 years (ironically last time with a deck built by Pro-Ject). They do seem to have a bit of an issue with managing to sell anything mind, at least in the UK.
Seriously though - Imagine I'm a music fan with a lot of vinyl. Possibly I haven't played it for some time because I don't have a deck but now I do want to (Its a very, VERY common scenario, trust me). I'm not a HiFi buff but I want something decent and £200 is about as far as I can go. I could get a Genie or a Debut, a Rega P1 or ....
Up it to £250 and the NAD comes in and maybe that new Thorens (which from what I've seen looks a little pricey for what it is next to even the limited competition).
Of course what many people in this market are doing is buying nasty Bush and Numark things (because they are unaware that there are any alternatives), getting disappointed and assuming that maybe vinyl is a bit shit after all.
If I had £1500 to spend I could choose between ... God I dunno ... 10, 20 options maybe - I'm not sure but probably as many, maybe more. Pro-Ject, Thorens, Rega, Michell, NAS, Roksan, VPI, Scheu, Clearaudio, Funk, Acoustic Solid, Acoustic Signature, Origin Live, Amazon ...
£150 for a turntable is quite expensive by the way for a lot of people, including a lot of people who listen to records. Its only in HiFi Land its considered cheap. I sell record players for a living. My market is people who listen to records, not just HiFi buffs. I seriously wish I could offer my customers more choice. I can't.
Just to correct a few earlier posts, but the Vertex Elbrus Point3 Balanced PSU is not a mains regenerator, it is a passive mains component with two filtered unlimited AC outlets for power amps and three balanced outlets for source components which do not draw more than 300va (CD, preamp etc.)
As an existing owner of a Stillpoints equipment rack and Vertex Elbrus balanced PSU (bought after extended home audition earlier this year) I concur with the comments of the Hi Fi+ reviewer about the stunning effect they have on the sound of a audio system.
Steve (convinced mains and resonance control disciple)
As an existing owner of a Stillpoints equipment rack and Vertex Elbrus balanced PSU (bought after extended home audition earlier this year) I concur with the comments of the Hi Fi+ reviewer about the stunning effect they have on the sound of a audio system.
Steve (convinced mains and resonance control disciple)
joel
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I know a couple of people in a similar position. Their choice: Technics 1200. Rather over budget, but the bullet-proof nature of the deck and its ease of use ie 33 and 45 instantly and at the touch of a button, made that a fairly easy pill to swallow.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
and if they have £400 its a fairly sensible route to take ... there still isn't a lot of choice though is there?
My point is that it is almost as if HiFi manufacturers are scared of entering this large market (I donlt just mean for TTs) and as a result wind up squabbling for small chunks of a much smaller one. I hate to say it but I think a lot of them haven't got the balls to do it.
SCIDB
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Hi,
I quite like reading HiFi+. I like the hifi porn on offer each month. Some of the record reviews are interesting.
I do agree that there is a fair amount of hyperbole in the write ups. But that's life. There is a fair amount of hyperbole in many things in life. You will always get hyperbole with expensive/luxury goods. A number of expensive/luxury goods are sold at a big price to appeal to a certain market.
Roy Gregory has set his stall out and ran with it. Some people will like it while others wont. I have no problem with that. The mag could have gone a bit down the Stereophile route and added objective testing. This would add an interesting edge to the magazine. It could look at why things may have improved and this could lead to interesting debate.
In this month's edition (issue 59) there are a few pieces on system tuning the mains & isolation. This is an area that can be measured. By having some measurements, you can open up good debate about the true value of the item and their true effctiveness. I have measured the mains in the past and used to work with vibration equipment so I know how effective it can be.
The reviews come across as though the sound improves with massive leaps and bounds with every new tweak or new equipment change. It makes you wonder how bad it was in the first place.
SCIDB
I quite like reading HiFi+. I like the hifi porn on offer each month. Some of the record reviews are interesting.
I do agree that there is a fair amount of hyperbole in the write ups. But that's life. There is a fair amount of hyperbole in many things in life. You will always get hyperbole with expensive/luxury goods. A number of expensive/luxury goods are sold at a big price to appeal to a certain market.
Roy Gregory has set his stall out and ran with it. Some people will like it while others wont. I have no problem with that. The mag could have gone a bit down the Stereophile route and added objective testing. This would add an interesting edge to the magazine. It could look at why things may have improved and this could lead to interesting debate.
In this month's edition (issue 59) there are a few pieces on system tuning the mains & isolation. This is an area that can be measured. By having some measurements, you can open up good debate about the true value of the item and their true effctiveness. I have measured the mains in the past and used to work with vibration equipment so I know how effective it can be.
The reviews come across as though the sound improves with massive leaps and bounds with every new tweak or new equipment change. It makes you wonder how bad it was in the first place.
SCIDB
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Hi Scidb
One of the problems in describing sound and changes in it.It can end up with a small change sounding bigger when the writer tries to describe the change. As i pointed out earlier in this thread audio writing has a style and language of its own(as does most genre writing) and for good or ill this is where we are at present. Can it be improved on,probably yes but does that mean it should be dumbed down ,i would say no.
I don't think the sound was bad to start with but the danger in all this is what is the reference set to? In the case of Absolute sounds it is live un-amplified music . I think the bottom line is live music is the bench mark we should measure against. However most audio fails to do this ,so the bench mark has to be the closet aproxamation to live music be it electric or acoustic.
Regards D Louth
One of the problems in describing sound and changes in it.It can end up with a small change sounding bigger when the writer tries to describe the change. As i pointed out earlier in this thread audio writing has a style and language of its own(as does most genre writing) and for good or ill this is where we are at present. Can it be improved on,probably yes but does that mean it should be dumbed down ,i would say no.
I don't think the sound was bad to start with but the danger in all this is what is the reference set to? In the case of Absolute sounds it is live un-amplified music . I think the bottom line is live music is the bench mark we should measure against. However most audio fails to do this ,so the bench mark has to be the closet aproxamation to live music be it electric or acoustic.
Regards D Louth
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
yuk,...... 'pet peve' is the ''I listen to live music'' thing..
listening to music live are you listening to....
1) a PA system, or unamplified instruments?
2) If amplified, what about the effect of THAT system and the 'room' (or hall more like) effects
3) If unamplified, 'room' effects still apply
4) In both cases live music can't be compared to recorded music because the artist is achieving something totally different.... that sounds, frequently, totally different...
Live music is the bench mark of Live music, and pretty much nothing else.
All IMO.
listening to music live are you listening to....
1) a PA system, or unamplified instruments?
2) If amplified, what about the effect of THAT system and the 'room' (or hall more like) effects
3) If unamplified, 'room' effects still apply
4) In both cases live music can't be compared to recorded music because the artist is achieving something totally different.... that sounds, frequently, totally different...
Live music is the bench mark of Live music, and pretty much nothing else.
All IMO.
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Hi bottleneck
Fair points,if not live music then what are we rating kit against ?
Regards D Louth
Fair points,if not live music then what are we rating kit against ?
Regards D Louth
dudywoxer
Regaholic
To try to compare with live music is pointless, unless its a live album, but you are still going to struggle with venue sound.
In my case I'm comparing with my ideal I suppose. A couple of examples would be, Angie Palmer, seen this Lady live a few times, in small venues, and her voice has ''something'' in it that makes her lyrics come alive. The CD's I have can not capture the 'live' sound, (may be if I used the PA amps and speakers they could) on my system, but that ''something'' comes through. Another example for me would by Christine Collister, she has a voice that can sing the birds out of the tree's, and Live she can hold an audience enthralled with her Voice and a Guitar. My system can convey that immediacy and holding power that she has at her best. It does not feel like she is the room, or any other of the Journo's flowery prose, but it sure grabs your attention.
We are all looking for something different from our systems, and can only compare to that ideal.
________
Laguna Bay II Condominium
In my case I'm comparing with my ideal I suppose. A couple of examples would be, Angie Palmer, seen this Lady live a few times, in small venues, and her voice has ''something'' in it that makes her lyrics come alive. The CD's I have can not capture the 'live' sound, (may be if I used the PA amps and speakers they could) on my system, but that ''something'' comes through. Another example for me would by Christine Collister, she has a voice that can sing the birds out of the tree's, and Live she can hold an audience enthralled with her Voice and a Guitar. My system can convey that immediacy and holding power that she has at her best. It does not feel like she is the room, or any other of the Journo's flowery prose, but it sure grabs your attention.
We are all looking for something different from our systems, and can only compare to that ideal.
________
Laguna Bay II Condominium
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every single recording played back on your system should 'sound' very different to one and other.
this is due to the fact that different musicians , instruments , engineers , studios etc have been used in each recording.
this is the only fact that we know for any degree of certainty.
so a system should sound entertaining and accurate to the recording , accuracy explaining my first comment that all recordings should sound different.
hi fi that does not allow the listener to hear the differences are not hi fi.
this is due to the fact that different musicians , instruments , engineers , studios etc have been used in each recording.
this is the only fact that we know for any degree of certainty.
so a system should sound entertaining and accurate to the recording , accuracy explaining my first comment that all recordings should sound different.
hi fi that does not allow the listener to hear the differences are not hi fi.
I think the last post is on the right track, but I would add that any hi-fi that doesn't allow you to connect on an emotional and physical level (please tell me that you guys don't sit motionless in some rigid listening chair) to the music is rather worthless.
Listening intently for those little spatial cues that audiophiles are so fond of is also missing the point.
Listening intently for those little spatial cues that audiophiles are so fond of is also missing the point.
Dev
Moderator
Sometimes, yes, almost moved to tears listening to classical music and sitting relatively "motionless in some rigid listening chair"
.
I just can't do that anymore; at least not without getting up at some point to pretend that I am one of the musicians or a conductor.
I have a built-in in my living room that hides my work space. Late at night, when I am working on my computer I sit off-axis to the right and listen from my chair.
A really good piece of music inspires me to get off my ass, stretch, get a drink (usually my 20th cup of coffee for the day), and write something worthwhile.
Moved to tears has never happened. Moved to want to climb the stairs like a panther and seduce my wife from the foot on up...
All the time.
I have a built-in in my living room that hides my work space. Late at night, when I am working on my computer I sit off-axis to the right and listen from my chair.
A really good piece of music inspires me to get off my ass, stretch, get a drink (usually my 20th cup of coffee for the day), and write something worthwhile.
Moved to tears has never happened. Moved to want to climb the stairs like a panther and seduce my wife from the foot on up...
All the time.
We're British; our tastes are different. We'd much prefer a nice cup of tea.
SMEagol
Because we wants it...
blimey he runs a little hot.... don't know about starting at the feet after a long day.
I like to seductively open my copy of Hifi Plush...
I like to seductively open my copy of Hifi Plush...
