I'm mostly with D Louth on all of this; and I do enjoy HiFi+ occasionally. My only gripe with HiFi+ is the sheer quantity of words expended on each review (particularly by RG). As an example, the review of the Grand Prix Audio direct drive record player ran to so many pages that I lost the will to live, let alone read on. As for HiFi World, I have long since ceased to buy it, as every columnist seems to write the same thing each month. I do have a subscription to HiFi Critic, but that won't be renewed - I'd rather have the advertising.
HiFi+
- Thread starter scott_01
- Start date
Probably the most significant words in this thread!
That's it chaps! At times when you can't take your systems any further, the next best thing is to indulge in some wishful thinking about what you could do if you won the lottery. And these magazines enable you to do just that. Reading about hi-fi is almost as big a part of the hobby as listening to the music.
Now believe me, there have been occasions when I would love to have written a review and said something like "This item is fantastic, sounds great, is priced reasonably, and looks OK too!" added a quick picture and left it at that. Well, even if the editor would publish a review like that, I bet I would have loads of complaints from people who felt cheated out of a good read.
That's not to say that I am defending all reviewers, and I too find a lot of the stuff written is hyperbole, to put it politely. The danger is, when you are padding out a review so the reader gets his pounds-worth, you run into the minefield of saying something simply for the sake of filling more column inches.
Also keep in mind that it is very difficult to write reviews on a regular basis and say something new/different all the time. Think about it, how many different things can you say about a piece of hi-fi - it's depressingly few!
I do try to keep to the facts most of the time but this is a subjective hobby and unless you go in for objective measurements (which have limited value anyway) you have to be somewhat subjective. Fortunately, in my case, I don't get paid, and the publication that I write for does not charge the readers anything, so I don't feel so obliged to write much more than I want to.
And as we don't do advertising, there is no pressure to perhaps add a bit of promotion into the review either. But remember, without the advertising, the hard-copy magazines would cost you far more than a few pounds, so you have to accept that there may be some 'compromises' in the articles that you read in them.
In conclusion, and as the OP stated, these publications are as much about a world of fantasy, as practical advice on buying hi-fi, and should be read as such, or left on the shelf at the newsagents! That's not to say that if you have spent your hard-earned money on them, you don't deserve a good rant of course!
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"With likes of £400 wooden record weights we could be forgiven for thinking as the Hifi dealers reach their endtime the crazies are crawling out of the woodwork to try for one last gasp to con the gullible."
Ah but come on Cooky £400 is cheap for a record clamp when you could spend £1600 on the Shun Mook:crazy:
philip
Ah but come on Cooky £400 is cheap for a record clamp when you could spend £1600 on the Shun Mook:crazy:
philip
I am perpetually in awe of your boundless knowledge Phillip-Thanks for the tip, I shall order the budget one immediately
SMEagol
Because we wants it...
I like the kuzma review, depending on whether you have the long splines on the record clamp facing down or the short splines you can change the sound of the turntable - come awn?... only a bat could hear that.
Uncle Ants
In Recordeo Speramus
Many years ago, when I was employed by a hi-fi company (who shall remain nameless), I overheard the following conversation with a hi-fi dealer (who shall also remain nameless) following a demo of a new amplifier which was in development at that time.
Dealer - "It sounds really, really great. How much will it cost?"
Manufacturer - "Well, taking into account the cost of components, R&D, and manufacture, we thought it would probably retail for around 1.5k"
Dealer - "No way, that's far too cheap. If you don't charge at least twice that then the buyers won't take it seriously"
Man - "Erm, Ok, so we think it'll retail for around 3k then....."
Dealer - "That's more like it. When will I be able to get some?"
The amp in question indeed retailed at around 3.5k when released. It had some super new knobs on it, and the case work was pretty funky, but it sounded the same as when it was going to retail at half the price.
Twenty years ago, when a nameless Japanese manufacturer launched a cartridge that was doubtless the most expensive in the world, a nameless German manufacturer was urged by his distributors to bring something even more expensive. And they did, right away.
As for HiFi+ ... each time I take a subscription and then read an RG review of the latest multi-kilo-pound tweak that brings 'far better this or that' I wonder why oh why. Must be the photographs indeed.
As for HiFi+ ... each time I take a subscription and then read an RG review of the latest multi-kilo-pound tweak that brings 'far better this or that' I wonder why oh why. Must be the photographs indeed.
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Markus S
Trade
Guys, stop complaining about the pricing, it's getting tedious. If you think something is too expensive for what it is, don't buy it.
You could also read up on the pricing of Swatch watches to see that outside commodities, getting the pricing right can make or break a product, and the lowest price is not necessarily the right price.
You could also read up on the pricing of Swatch watches to see that outside commodities, getting the pricing right can make or break a product, and the lowest price is not necessarily the right price.
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Hi Guys
cooky1257 I must say that i resent your comment. Firstly the post i made is based on years of experience trying stuff out and finding that quite often what i thought would or could not work did. I used to have a very narrow view of things and my experience with certain products tweaks etc made me abandon a tight narrow minded view point. I certainly am not presenting a Dealers view on this. Any thing i say on this Forum is my well considered non commercial thoughts and experience. If we take your point to its logical conclusion then none of us need to read a book or see a movie to have an opinion( Ops forgot thats what many do all ready and not with those two examples). How can any one be so sure if they have not tried a thing. This stagers , shocks and frustrates me ,well all i can say is good luck with your approach to life and Audio.
My only interest in being on this forum is to offer some advice,which i can back up if asked and having some fun into the bargain. I have no commercial gain to make here . Read all my postings have i once tried to sell a piece of audio to anyone. Have i recommended any Dealer to anyone ,No ,i have not all i have offered is comment and some advice but carefully thought out advice and i have at least most of the time read the thread and commented based on that,not some hidden agenda or crazy narrow minded attack,either on a person or a topic like say isolation etc. All i am asking for is for comments to be qualified!!!!!
Nuuk i for one am feed up with the dumbing down of the press/media and audio magazines. I am sorry but i can't think of any recent examples of padding in audio reviews but i can think of loads of edited to the point of not making sense items. I am sick of 3/4 of the review out lining what a thing does,heck you can read the brochure for all of that. Quick intro/a little info about specs etc and then a decent review with all the facts,system used,room size acoustic,music used etc and at the end any ways it can be made better;mains,isolation etc. This is the way it used to be done and i am sorry if other people don't have enough of an attention span to read/follow an in depth review. A lot of the problems we have in the world at the minute are down to the lowest common denominator approach ,its good to be stretched thats how we learn. I miss the good read,which did stretch me and i did learn from that you got from HI-FI news and record review,Absolute Sound,Stereophile from 10 years ago and back.
HI-FI + and the likes of six moons,Positive Feedback on line. When i first got into audio it was hard to find information and these magazines were vital but when i compare current reviews to back then ,they are almost useless very little qualification for the results claimed. HI-FI+ does at least give you a good in depth review and as i said earlier i find that i agree with findings in this mag there-fore i respect them .
For those who express rampant entrenched views ,try the thing and you may be surprised that you too have the ears of a bat.
Markus is also right about pricing in the context of this thread it is not relevant to HI-FI +and the way we read it or see its stance on products. I like Roy's style of writing,if some one else doesn't fare enough. But is the message in his writing good and worth while ,i would say yes as i have found myself in agreement more than i would disagree.
I want/would like to see more qualification in postings,please as well as in magazine reviews. I for one think this will make things more useful to all of us. We will be able to learn then from each other and maybe we agree maybe we don't but at least we will know how we arrived at our view point.
Regards D Louth
cooky1257 I must say that i resent your comment. Firstly the post i made is based on years of experience trying stuff out and finding that quite often what i thought would or could not work did. I used to have a very narrow view of things and my experience with certain products tweaks etc made me abandon a tight narrow minded view point. I certainly am not presenting a Dealers view on this. Any thing i say on this Forum is my well considered non commercial thoughts and experience. If we take your point to its logical conclusion then none of us need to read a book or see a movie to have an opinion( Ops forgot thats what many do all ready and not with those two examples). How can any one be so sure if they have not tried a thing. This stagers , shocks and frustrates me ,well all i can say is good luck with your approach to life and Audio.
My only interest in being on this forum is to offer some advice,which i can back up if asked and having some fun into the bargain. I have no commercial gain to make here . Read all my postings have i once tried to sell a piece of audio to anyone. Have i recommended any Dealer to anyone ,No ,i have not all i have offered is comment and some advice but carefully thought out advice and i have at least most of the time read the thread and commented based on that,not some hidden agenda or crazy narrow minded attack,either on a person or a topic like say isolation etc. All i am asking for is for comments to be qualified!!!!!
Nuuk i for one am feed up with the dumbing down of the press/media and audio magazines. I am sorry but i can't think of any recent examples of padding in audio reviews but i can think of loads of edited to the point of not making sense items. I am sick of 3/4 of the review out lining what a thing does,heck you can read the brochure for all of that. Quick intro/a little info about specs etc and then a decent review with all the facts,system used,room size acoustic,music used etc and at the end any ways it can be made better;mains,isolation etc. This is the way it used to be done and i am sorry if other people don't have enough of an attention span to read/follow an in depth review. A lot of the problems we have in the world at the minute are down to the lowest common denominator approach ,its good to be stretched thats how we learn. I miss the good read,which did stretch me and i did learn from that you got from HI-FI news and record review,Absolute Sound,Stereophile from 10 years ago and back.
HI-FI + and the likes of six moons,Positive Feedback on line. When i first got into audio it was hard to find information and these magazines were vital but when i compare current reviews to back then ,they are almost useless very little qualification for the results claimed. HI-FI+ does at least give you a good in depth review and as i said earlier i find that i agree with findings in this mag there-fore i respect them .
For those who express rampant entrenched views ,try the thing and you may be surprised that you too have the ears of a bat.
Markus is also right about pricing in the context of this thread it is not relevant to HI-FI +and the way we read it or see its stance on products. I like Roy's style of writing,if some one else doesn't fare enough. But is the message in his writing good and worth while ,i would say yes as i have found myself in agreement more than i would disagree.
I want/would like to see more qualification in postings,please as well as in magazine reviews. I for one think this will make things more useful to all of us. We will be able to learn then from each other and maybe we agree maybe we don't but at least we will know how we arrived at our view point.
Regards D Louth
I'm sorry if you resent my comment but it is very rude to paraphrase 'but you haven't tried it so be quiet until you have.
I'm not trying to insult you but I've yet to meet a dealer who's a skeptic. Your position is founded on the premise that a lot of this stuff works based on your experience-fair enough, my position, based on years of experience too finds 'most' of it doesn't or at best any changes are subtle and any improvements far from conclusive and therefore the absurd promises/claims for them are BS (but if you pay enough you'll convince yourself).
FYI my cd transport is currently sitting on 3 glass pyramids-do they improve the sound? Well the only firm conclusion I can come to is they don't make it worse, I thought initially they changed what I was hearing but no, my first impressions were just that-they just look cool so they stay.
I don't need to sit at the end of my garden all night to be able to say without qualification there aren't any fairies there.
I've read posts on here of people saying they can hear mains fuse directionality FHS.
The mains regenerator that 'improves' with a different power lead comment elswhere sums up my incredulity perfectly.
Until you have tried these ludicrously priced items quite frankly you aren't in a position to speak up for them either.
My position isn't narrow it's just skeptical-if you think this record clamp works better than a £20 one please buy one and enjoy it and please tell us about it then that'll be 2 people who think they're worth it and so on.
I'm not trying to insult you but I've yet to meet a dealer who's a skeptic. Your position is founded on the premise that a lot of this stuff works based on your experience-fair enough, my position, based on years of experience too finds 'most' of it doesn't or at best any changes are subtle and any improvements far from conclusive and therefore the absurd promises/claims for them are BS (but if you pay enough you'll convince yourself).
FYI my cd transport is currently sitting on 3 glass pyramids-do they improve the sound? Well the only firm conclusion I can come to is they don't make it worse, I thought initially they changed what I was hearing but no, my first impressions were just that-they just look cool so they stay.
I don't need to sit at the end of my garden all night to be able to say without qualification there aren't any fairies there.
I've read posts on here of people saying they can hear mains fuse directionality FHS.
The mains regenerator that 'improves' with a different power lead comment elswhere sums up my incredulity perfectly.
Until you have tried these ludicrously priced items quite frankly you aren't in a position to speak up for them either.
My position isn't narrow it's just skeptical-if you think this record clamp works better than a £20 one please buy one and enjoy it and please tell us about it then that'll be 2 people who think they're worth it and so on.
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I'm so glad I don't review and edit anymore.
One area where all of the hi-fi mags have failed (and failed miserably) is teaching people how to put systems together. Hi-Fi+ does it every few issues, but the vast majority of publications don't do it.
When non-audiophiles read hi-fi magazines, they learn that record weights cost 400 pounds, and that cables cost 500 pounds per meter, and that you need to spend at least 5000 pounds for a decent system.
What they don't learn is how speaker "X" works with amplifier "Y" and why cable "N" might be a good and cost-effective choice for an entire system.
Telling someone that they need a Naim CDS3 (don't forget the power supply) to get SOTA digital sound is pretty irrelevant if they are going to connect to a Rotel or Yamaha receiver and 500 pound speakers.
Why is it so difficult to create systems for people that not only sound good, but are a likely to get purchased by more than a few audiophiles?
Reviewers are supposed to be "experts". Hi-Fi reviewers come across as shills, sadly.
Frank
One area where all of the hi-fi mags have failed (and failed miserably) is teaching people how to put systems together. Hi-Fi+ does it every few issues, but the vast majority of publications don't do it.
When non-audiophiles read hi-fi magazines, they learn that record weights cost 400 pounds, and that cables cost 500 pounds per meter, and that you need to spend at least 5000 pounds for a decent system.
What they don't learn is how speaker "X" works with amplifier "Y" and why cable "N" might be a good and cost-effective choice for an entire system.
Telling someone that they need a Naim CDS3 (don't forget the power supply) to get SOTA digital sound is pretty irrelevant if they are going to connect to a Rotel or Yamaha receiver and 500 pound speakers.
Why is it so difficult to create systems for people that not only sound good, but are a likely to get purchased by more than a few audiophiles?
Reviewers are supposed to be "experts". Hi-Fi reviewers come across as shills, sadly.
Frank
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
'spose my own gripe with the hifi press is an ingrained....... 100% acceptance ..... that cable selection / tweak selection is part of making a hifi sound good.
Any forum on the net shows that it's a roughly equal split between those that swear by cables/cones/domes/spike's/nike's etc) and those that think they make no real difference by and large.
Why don't magazines reflect the reality of real life experience and opinion?
Why isn't the 'disbeliever' attitude even...'credited' by magazines?
It's very very very hard to ask yourself that question, and not come back to a cynical sales orientated answer as a result.
I don't see this one-sidedness in other magazines...... not in the same way....... WHY?
I don't know why the magazines (all of them that I've read) jump 100% on one side of the arguement if not for commercial reasons.. it's just not reflecting the experiences of the buying public... hence all the debates I think.
If only magazines accepted and printed the opinions of people who think that £300 on a mains lead is a joke (as an example), then maybe they'd be taken a little more seriously by audio nuts like me (who happen to think that's a fair question!!), and by people from a more pro-background too.
Not having a 'dig' at anyone here, just think the mags are being biased.
Any forum on the net shows that it's a roughly equal split between those that swear by cables/cones/domes/spike's/nike's etc) and those that think they make no real difference by and large.
Why don't magazines reflect the reality of real life experience and opinion?
Why isn't the 'disbeliever' attitude even...'credited' by magazines?
It's very very very hard to ask yourself that question, and not come back to a cynical sales orientated answer as a result.
I don't see this one-sidedness in other magazines...... not in the same way....... WHY?
I don't know why the magazines (all of them that I've read) jump 100% on one side of the arguement if not for commercial reasons.. it's just not reflecting the experiences of the buying public... hence all the debates I think.
If only magazines accepted and printed the opinions of people who think that £300 on a mains lead is a joke (as an example), then maybe they'd be taken a little more seriously by audio nuts like me (who happen to think that's a fair question!!), and by people from a more pro-background too.
Not having a 'dig' at anyone here, just think the mags are being biased.
I presume that mags don't suggest many 'systems' as they believe (probably correctly) that most readers are looking for single items on the upgrade path.
And I would guess that the number of people who do want to be told exactly what to buy is insignificant compared to the ones who want to choose their own! Sadly it is human nature to do it 'their way', even if the outcome is worse than them having taken advice.
That said, some practical advice about putting a system together never goes amiss!
I think it is fair to say (coming from the perspective of a former reviewer and editor) that a number of audiophile reviewers have not listened to enough good systems (and that includes their own) to know what to recommend. Listening to systems at shows doesn't count. The room generally sucks, and you're lucky to find more than a dozen individual components at any show worth requesting for review.
Synergy is a very important aspect of hi-fi and why you need to read reviews within the context that they are composed by the reviewer.
Just because RG (and I am not picking on Roy...if anything, I like Hi-Fi+ a lot) writes that product "X" is superb, that doesn't make it so. It might be true within the context of his system, but how many readers are likely to have that system? None.
Buying a stereo should be fun, but sadly it isn't.
Non-audiophiles (lucky bastards) don't care about tweaks and power conditioners...
They want a system that they can operate, position with as little disruption to their room as possible, and one that sounds better than the one they used to have. That's it.
What is so difficult about saying that speaker "X" sounds very good with amplifier "Y" connected to CD player "N" and turntable "T". Add some cable from manufacturer "B" and you're all set.
The reason why they don't do it...
Folks might be happy with what they buy and not feel the need to upgrade every time a new review comes out.
Yup.
Synergy is a very important aspect of hi-fi and why you need to read reviews within the context that they are composed by the reviewer.
Just because RG (and I am not picking on Roy...if anything, I like Hi-Fi+ a lot) writes that product "X" is superb, that doesn't make it so. It might be true within the context of his system, but how many readers are likely to have that system? None.
Buying a stereo should be fun, but sadly it isn't.
Non-audiophiles (lucky bastards) don't care about tweaks and power conditioners...
They want a system that they can operate, position with as little disruption to their room as possible, and one that sounds better than the one they used to have. That's it.
What is so difficult about saying that speaker "X" sounds very good with amplifier "Y" connected to CD player "N" and turntable "T". Add some cable from manufacturer "B" and you're all set.
The reason why they don't do it...
Folks might be happy with what they buy and not feel the need to upgrade every time a new review comes out.
Yup.
lbr
monkey boy
What a bloody good idea. I'm a long time subscriber to HiFi+ (and I agree that RG is disappearing up his own jacksy issue by issue), and I can't say that I feel particularly educated by that mag as to how to put together a system. That would be very interesting and valuable. I guess that suggesting specific systems is a small step in this direction, but is of limited value as compared to really trying to impart an understanding of why certain kit works together.
Totally agree. I'm very firmly in the "cables, tweaks etc can make a significant difference" camp, but I'm not so arrogant as to think that is the only valid opinion to hold on the matter. Sadly I think a lot of people do display that kind of arrogance.
RG in the latest issue of HiFi+ makes a side comment about people who don't believe that the quality of mains makes a significant difference. It was something along the lines of "a small minority of luddites" [the word "luddites" he definitely used].
Now I do think mains has a significant effect, and I have the boxes to prove it, but it is clear that those who don't believe are not "a minority" - it's a widely held, plausible view and just because it is not my view does not make it wrong. "Luddites" was just plain rude. The most charitable conclusion I can draw about RG from comments like that is that he is an arrogant tit.
sq225917
Exposer of Foo
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The HIFI industry is on its arse, and its on its arse becasue there has been no real development in sound quality since the arrival of cd. Forget SACD that was a red herring and down to mastering mostly.
We've had to wait for computert equipment manufacturers to coem in and up the game. Apple, for **** sake have done more for improving more music in audiophiles houses fo late than any HIFI brand.
Gear is too expensive to buy, the distributors want to protect margin and their current brand base so won't touch the chinese stuff and tell you its shit via their mouthpieces, (magazines).
What's left of the industry is predicated on a sucession of bullshit tweaks at high cost that return minimal dividends, cables, racks, and now mains regeneration.
If any mains regeneration company wants me to buy stuff it's simple, show me what the power supply looks like just as it comes off the inside of the smoothing caps inside my gear with and without your 3k box of tricks.
But don't tell me i need a £400 cable for it to work properly, it's a mains regenratrion unit, what attches it to the maisn should make absolutely 100% of **** all difference.
it's appalling, i was one page 46 of this months 'plush' before we had gotten past the stands article. and everyone one of them except the SRA stand has been reviewed to buggery before in those very page not more than 12 months ago.
Accessory pimping is killing hifi/.
We've had to wait for computert equipment manufacturers to coem in and up the game. Apple, for **** sake have done more for improving more music in audiophiles houses fo late than any HIFI brand.
Gear is too expensive to buy, the distributors want to protect margin and their current brand base so won't touch the chinese stuff and tell you its shit via their mouthpieces, (magazines).
What's left of the industry is predicated on a sucession of bullshit tweaks at high cost that return minimal dividends, cables, racks, and now mains regeneration.
If any mains regeneration company wants me to buy stuff it's simple, show me what the power supply looks like just as it comes off the inside of the smoothing caps inside my gear with and without your 3k box of tricks.
But don't tell me i need a £400 cable for it to work properly, it's a mains regenratrion unit, what attches it to the maisn should make absolutely 100% of **** all difference.
it's appalling, i was one page 46 of this months 'plush' before we had gotten past the stands article. and everyone one of them except the SRA stand has been reviewed to buggery before in those very page not more than 12 months ago.
Accessory pimping is killing hifi/.
joel
Shaman of Signals
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What Cookie says.
While I don't think hifi mags and the people who run them are evil, liars, or the scum of the earth or anything remotely like that, what they write is quite irrelevant to me.
That's possibly a problem, as I'm someone who has put a fair amount of time, effort and money into audio and yet none of the little real, practical knowledge I've managed to scrape together has been as a result of visiting a dealer or reading an audio magazine.
While I don't think hifi mags and the people who run them are evil, liars, or the scum of the earth or anything remotely like that, what they write is quite irrelevant to me.
That's possibly a problem, as I'm someone who has put a fair amount of time, effort and money into audio and yet none of the little real, practical knowledge I've managed to scrape together has been as a result of visiting a dealer or reading an audio magazine.
Well, quite. It cannot be said often enough that there is no absolute, objective measure of value. The right price for something is that at which enough people will buy it to keep the manufacturer and retailer in business.
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