Leading edges of notes

Originally posted by HenryT
An interesting admission there Bub. :) Care to elaborate? I mean, would you say that weakness was a set-up issue, maybe something to do with the musical tastes and therefore equipment choice of those systems/users? Maybe different equipment on Mana would redress the (im)balalnce? Or simply that Mana don't play classical or acoustic material with less beat driven impetus as well?
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Well actually it was sarcasm. Sorry Henry.
 
Originally posted by Joolsburger
Titan,

I'm at work in London it's a horrid, grey, wet day the nearest decent bit of nature is 8 miles away and my boss is a dick..

My hifi is the one thing I AM happy with...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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That's why I wrote 'cars and houses'.
Wonderful, after work have a walk in the rain. Hear the gentile sound of the cars echoed by the sublime houses. When you arrive at that nearest decent bit of nature lay on the grass and hear the birds singing. If they are already gone asleep well maybe next time you should go there before.
Smell the grass (be careful about dog-s**t) then go home and listen to your Hifi. And relax... Live could not be better...
 
oh my god, that's what happens when writing in 2 two different places in two different languages at the same time. :rolleyes:
So I meant gentle...
 
Originally posted by HenryT
Originally posted by the Devil
classical music sounds absolutely dreadful through all the Mana'd systems I've heard, a design weakness I guess.
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An interesting admission there Bub. :) Care to elaborate?
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When I read that I assumed of course that it was a design weakness in classical music....since of course the angle iron is perfect and the best thing since the wheel! :D :D :D (and the only thing better than a 6 foot pile being a 10 foot pile ;) )

Tones, I guess what all this leading edge stuff is about is getting the hifi to turn Herbie's interpretations of your beloved baroque into Minkowski's or Norrington's (although changing from 33rpm to 45 would also help with the latter!). The general assumption (quite possibly fair) is that the hifi does blunt the attack of real percussive musical sounds, and so anything that can tighten that up has to be good - although this does sound rather like Mr Ranson's pet hate of using one bad feature to correct the symptoms of another fault. This effect of course doesn't apply nearly so well with instruments outside of a rock band, which have other musical qualities (like subtlety, delicacy, nuance....)!

:duck:
 
A good music replay system shall play the notes, the whole notes, and nothing but the notes. So help me God!
 
Graham, I do believe one of your fave's Mahlar (one day I may spell), does use a lot of attack, in the motorhead stylee' (circa 1979-83 era) and therefore I feel a more robust attack pattern would certainly be benefical, but he's the proviso' it must be accompained (AS Merlin so rightly points out) the rest of the note, for a full ensamble' to be fully appriecated. :) T.
 
Originally posted by merlin
Quite so Tony!

What the angle iron seems to do is accentuate the rise of an instrument's note, by effectively removing the rest of it, particularly the natural decay of a soundwave.
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Just a thought, but aren't stacks and stacks of mana (or anything) in the same room as your system going to have a more than small effect of the acoustic signature of your room, after the sound has left the speakers.
Anyone care to comment on the Allison effect?
 
Originally posted by joel
Just a thought, but aren't stacks and stacks of mana (or anything) in the same room as your system going to have a more than small effect of the acoustic signature of your room, after the sound has left the speakers.
Anyone care to comment on the Allison effect?
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Yes, I'd like to try.

Once, when demoing an Olive green stack of Naim boxes on Mana level 9 (in north wales I do believe) - I was shocked by the leading edge defiition, and the way the sonic signature had altered.

The girl I was with at the time (allison) said ''that sounds like crap!''



NB to all Zealots, that was a JOKE!
 
A good way to introduce yourself to the concept of leading edges (and why they're important to the realistic reproduction of music) is to listen to a good, well-recorded Spanish guitar track on a cheapie midi system, and then listen to the same track on a pair of ATC actives. Notice the incredible difference in the "solidity" (can't think of a better word) of each pluck. The former system wll most likely soften the pluck of the string, whereas the ATCs will really resolve it in all its microdynamic (there's a buzzword for ya!) glory and make it sound like a real guitar string is being plucked before you.

Spanish guitar is just an obvious way of demonstrating this (drum tracks are also good, and percussion in general) and IMO every instrument, and probably every sound, benefits from accurate and dynamic leading edge reproduction. IME once you've heard a system that does leading edges well, you won't want to go back to a "soft" system - the realism is lost. That said, I certainly wouldn't prioritise leading edge reproduction above all else.

Dunc

P.S. - Please excuse me if the above is poorly worded or makes no sense (I've been up waaaay too long...)
 
Originally posted by dunkyboy
A good way to introduce yourself to the concept of leading edges (and why they're important to the realistic reproduction of music) is to listen to a good, well-recorded Spanish guitar track on a cheapie midi system, and then listen to the same track on a pair of ATC actives. Notice the incredible difference in the "solidity" (can't think of a better word) of each pluck. The former system wll most likely soften the pluck of the string, whereas the ATCs will really resolve it in all its microdynamic (there's a buzzword for ya!) glory and make it sound like a real guitar string is being plucked before you.

Spanish guitar is just an obvious way of demonstrating this (drum tracks are also good, and percussion in general) and IMO every instrument, and probably every sound, benefits from accurate and dynamic leading edge reproduction. IME once you've heard a system that does leading edges well, you won't want to go back to a "soft" system - the realism is lost. That said, I certainly wouldn't prioritise leading edge reproduction above all else.

Dunc

P.S. - Please excuse me if the above is poorly worded or makes no sense (I've been up waaaay too long...)
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Maybe I don't understand what you are talking about but I wonder if you ever have been to a live concert of spanish guitar and heard the guitar from a distance of at least 8-10 meters. Then compare your ATC actives... :rolleyes:
Take for example a Julian Bream concert or Yepes (I don't know if he does anymore concerts!). There way of playing is different than what you describe above.
Do you also know the different techniques of playing guitar (finger, wrist..) and the different sound achieved by these techniques? I don't know what you mean by soft systems but I would like to remember you that guitar music can also be played softly! Personally when hearing guitar music I would like to hear the whole frequency range with all harmonics but there aren't many systems who reproduce all the frequencies perfectly balanced because of compromises which everyone chooses for one or the other reason.
Also having or not a system with the concept of leading edges can be a compromise just like having a system / speakers which don't reproduce all frequencies perfectly balanced. I don't know which compromise is better...
 
Tones...

Leading edge or "attack" of a note is one of the main reasons that different guitars sound different from each other or it how you can tell how hard the instrument is being played.

You say your deaf to it.. but unless you are happy with your system being completely unable to differentiate between different instrument types then your not. If your system can enable you to hear whether a violin is being plucked or bowed..then it is obviously has the ability to reproduce "leading edges" of notes.

It is nothing more than a term to describe a characteristic that all notes played by all instruments inherently posses.

As has already been stated.. EVERY note possesses Attack, Sustain and Decay properties.. It is the relationship between these poperties and of course the frequencies involved.. that define the sounds of different instruments and how they are being played..

By definition .. these properties are intrinsic to the music.

GTM
 
Originally posted by GTM
Leading edge or "attack" of a note is one of the main reasons that different guitars sound different from each other or it how you can tell how hard the instrument is being played.
GTM
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The main reasons :confused: :confused:
The only main reason is the frequency range including harmonics.
Leading edge is one of the secondary reasons (maybe one of the most important). So first get your system reproducing all frequencies balanced and clear then think of leading edge. Otherwise go for compromises.
 
Here again as a personal 'Thang' in the way we like 'our own' music to sound, Now I do love the leading edge/detail and percussive dynamics, that are so much a part of the music I love, but to just major on this alone, would be, to me, a foolish endevour, as so much more of 'whole structure of the music' would be missed, and to that end the point of listening to the music itself, as it is, the whole artists perfomance you have purchased, not just the 'Front section' :rolleyes:
The trail edge note body, is as inmportant as the leading edge, if you can expolit to it's fullest, then the music, is just that, music.
Not wow that guitar solo detail is awesome, or the snare skin is taut today, yes they are important, but why have bangers without mash?, fish without chips?.
Graham has pointed out, that 'blunting of the leading edge' in ceratin types/styles of music isn't such a problem, and in certain instances maybe beneifical ?
Some very accurate/neutral system present the music in such a way, (correctly maybe?), that they fore go the important parts to a lot of people (including myself), hence the soporific/lifeless tag, yes it's a coloured presentention, without question I feel, however for a lot of guys, it's the only way :)
That all being said and done, leading edge is great, but so is the rest of the note body, very, very few systems can do this right, however once you hear it, Elivis Returns to the building :) Wm
 
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Attack of a note

Attack of a note: what is it?

What happens when an instrument plays a note? Does it play from 0 db directly to let say 80 db that exact note and then directly back to 0 db? Is a note the smallest unit of the music?

If I play a string instrument for example, when I start to press the bow on the string the string starts to vibrates, first slowly then more and more faster depending also on how much pressure I make with my fingers and where I place them. The vibration of the string starts to make a sound, which at the beginning is not the one I want to play, but as soon as the string starts to vibrate at the right frequency the sound is the one I want to play. There is a delay between the first sound that comes out and the one I want to play. To make it more difficult the vibrations of the string starts to make the body (chassis) of the instrument to resonate and that is the sound we hear the most. Now the time that happens the instrument has played so many other frequencies (notes) with different timings and noise level. How do you want to talk about edges of a note?
To make it more complicated the sound leaves the instrument and with very slight different propagation speed will come to you. Other frequencies due to vibrations of the objects in the room and due to the reflections will also arrive to your years and all this in different timings and frequencies. Do you still want to talk about note?
When you talk about attack do you mean the time delay from the first frequency to the main frequencies (note) played, that's when the body of the instrument is vibrating the most?
When the delay is reduced to 0 then you mean this is a fast / better attack?
The same is when you stop playing a note: you expect that the time between the peak and 0 db is reduced to 0? No way if you are playing a natural instrument. Just think of the vibrations of the instruments how long they still last. Do you want to talk again about edges?

You mostly hear music reproduced by electronic equipments. The characteristics of the electrical instruments are much different than the natural ones. The time until the note is produced is much shorter, this also because of the amplification (db): The first frequencies which have a lower gain will be overpowered by the full note played therefore will not be possible to hear. Also with equalizers and the lack of equipments that don't reproduce all frequencies at the same level, certain frequencies are cut and other enhanced so that to you there is much more ââ'¬Å"attackââ'¬Â because you don't hear the frequencies between the beginning of the string starting to vibrate and the final note.
Well in this complexity everybody should then choose what system we wants. But reducing a note to a square design box is too simple! And that's where we are going in our days. Maybe that's what lot's of people mean by digital / analytical sound!?

Hope this was not too boringââ'¬Â¦
 
Originally posted by DLF
I remember watching one of the Royal Society lectures they used to show on BBC2 over the summer. They had an experiment where they recorded the same note on a violin and a piano. When played back you could easily differentiate the two instruments. They then edited the recordings to remove the leading edge or 'attack'. When played back the two recordings sounded identical. The leading edge, although a small part of the waveform, is obviously rather important.

David
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Spot on; or, as our German friends would say, Genau.

Caution: Boring member coming in :rds2:

What DLF said is quite true. Let's skip electronic instruments. Let's concentrate on acoustic ones. And let's take as an example the flute. The body of the flute sound is very pure and almost tuning fork like. However, it definitely doesn't sound that way. There are many factors involved here, but one of them is that the initial sound - the 'leading edge', is actually not pure at all: the air hitting the edge causes turbulence and that turbulence has a definite effect in the body of the sound.

This also happens with speech. If you make a talking machine composed of consonants and vowels and just string them together (can= k+e+~), you get an unintelligible cackle. To be intelligible, the consonant bit must intermesh with the vowel bit giving it a quite different aural effect (psychological, not physical).

Returning to instruments most studies were achieved with organ pipes. Now, an organ pipe is essentially a flute, but you may voice it quite differently: even if you don't change harmonic content, the difference between the attack transients (the initial 'chif' determines, to a very large effect, the sound you listen; that is, the body of the note, after the transient is acoustically affected by the attack.

But all this, I think, is not in dispute. What Tones wants to know is if there are differences in reproduction capability here.

Now, for once, I disagree with you Tones: there definitely are such differences. Incidentally, that is why I chose the Lavardin. Take the Moon amplifier, or the Chord, the YBA, for instance. When listening to a very chiffy organ, the sound is a mess: none of the amplifiers I listened to had the resolution to actually recreate all the initial jangle of inharmonic sounds. With the Lavardin, which is very transparent, they become much clearer - and hence, the sound colour is much more true to life.

If anything, I'd say that is the most important single factor distinguishing amplifiers: the ability to resolve very complex transients.

But the Lavardin is quite different from all the other amplifiers I heard, and that is why I bought it. Most electronic equipments have a messy transient attack. The valve ones much less so. I don't know the technical reasons, but this seems to be a constant fact.

Well. I didn't solve the problem, but I hope I added to the confusion.
 
Originally posted by titian
Maybe I don't understand what you are talking about but I wonder if you ever have been to a live concert of spanish guitar and heard the guitar from a distance of at least 8-10 meters. Then compare your ATC actives... :rolleyes:
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That's beside the point. If you listen to a recording of a spanish guitar concert where the microphones are 8-10 meters away, the ATCs will sound very much like that - as you say the initial transient attack will be diminished, and this will be picked up by the microphone, and reproduced by the ATCs. I'm referring to recordings where the microphone is much closer to the guitar, which in turn leads the ATCs to reproduce it as if the guitar is right in front of you. If you want to simulate sitting 8 - 10 meters away, you're going to have to get a different sort of recording.


Take for example a Julian Bream concert or Yepes (I don't know if he does anymore concerts!). There way of playing is different than what you describe above. Do you also know the different techniques of playing guitar (finger, wrist..) and the different sound achieved by these techniques? I don't know what you mean by soft systems but I would like to remember you that guitar music can also be played softly!
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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest all Spanish guitar playing sounds the same, or that guitars cannot be played softly! :) Sadly my knowledge of Spanish guitar and its different styles is very lacking, and I was just drawing on the few good Spanish guitar recordings I've heard, which definitely do exhibit the strong transient attack I described above. The strings in these recordings are often plucked very strongly, and the ATCs reproduce this right on the money, whereas lesser speakers soften the attack.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming that only active ATCs can do this! I'm just using my own experience that active ATCs are simply the best speakers I've heard when it comes to realistci transient reproduction. I happliy concede that I have only listened to a tiny subset of all the speakers in the world, and there will almost certainly be other speakers that do this equally (or better...? ;) )


Personally when hearing guitar music I would like to hear the whole frequency range with all harmonics but there aren't many systems who reproduce all the frequencies perfectly balanced because of compromises which everyone chooses for one or the other reason.
Also having or not a system with the concept of leading edges can be a compromise just like having a system / speakers which don't reproduce all frequencies perfectly balanced. I don't know which compromise is better...
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I think any system that aspires to reproducing music with any real degree of fidelity needs to be able to reproduce transients, the and "leading edges" of notes generally, accurately. If they cannot do this, they simply aren't accurate, and it's obvious to hear. Now, as I said, I don't believe good leading edge reproduction should exclude all other qualities of accurate music reproduction, by any means. A good system should do it all right. :)

Dunc
 
I know everyone (?) thinks Mana accentuates the leading edge, I think it just lowers the noise floor and removes overhang.

If you are not used to it, it sounds 'wrong'. If you go to plenty of live music venues, it sounds 'right'.

Whatever.
 

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