Mark-ups...

Can you not sell it elsewhere in Europe?

 

Too complicated with all the paperwork and bureaucracy required to export it. Besides, elsewhere in Europe they have plenty of choice of the same model in their own market!

Michael.

 

Well, if you can't sell it in Portugal, you'll have to either keep it or export it. Why don't you start an ad on autoscout24.de for a laugh, somebody from Eastern Europe might see it and buy your car. You'll have to be lucky to get 15k€, though.

 

I may have missed a point but 10 year old M3s look like about £7000 in the UK.

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/WW...&miles=40&max_records=50&modelexact=1&photo=1

for a sample local to me...

Paul

 

Paul - it's a convertible, so that makes it worth more. It's also the 3.2L 'Evo' model made from 1996 on which are worth more than older 3.0L model with much less power and only a 5spd gearbox. It's also only done 120000km (about 75k miles) which is low for its age.

If you take a look on www.mobile.de you'll see that these go for around €15000 in Germany which has the biggest market for them and the cheapest prices.

s/h cars in Portugal generally go for significantly more than anywhere else in Europe simply because the new prices of cars are so much higher than the rest of Europe because of the draconian car tax...not to mention 21% VAT which is levied ontop of the car tax.

As an example a new M3 Convertible here costs €91K. In the UK the price is £44K, about €64K, nearly €30K less.

You still have to pay the tax even if you import a car from abroad - it reduces for the age of the car but not by much. If I wanted to import a 5yr old BMW 330d from Germany I'd have to pay about €10K in import tax plus around €500 in various registration fees.

Michael.

 

Is this not against EU law?

I could import your BMW into the UK and not be liable for any duty/VAT. This applies to any used tax paid vehicle coming from another member state.

Paul

 

Not so, I'm afraid. There's a loophole somewhere to allow the non-car-producing countries to slap on huge taxes on car imports; the Netherlands and Denmark, for example, do the same.

 

The EU is detestable...

And I suppose the Portuguese don't bother to refund any of the duty when you permanently export a second hand car...

Anyway the idea of an M3 convertible seems contradictory. A hard edged soft car. Perhaps that's part of the reason for it sticking?

Paul

 

Nope - unfortunately not. Car tax has yet to be harmonized in the EU. If I import a car I still have to car tax (but not VAT, as long as the VAT was already paid in the original country). It's not import duty, it's car tax.

Portuguese car tax is calculated as follows (for passenger cars):

Engine size < 1250cc: (€3.83 * engine size in CCs) - €2473.16
Engine size > 1250cc: (€9.06 * engine size in CCs) - €9010.66

This is then reduced on a sliding scale for cars more than 1 yr old as follows:

1yr: 20% reduction
2yrs: 28%
3yrs: 35%
4yrs: 43%
5yrs: 52%
etc. up to 10 yrs old and over where you get an 80% reduction in the car tax.

So, for a 5yr old 330d the engine size is 3000cc (the tax doesn't distinguish between petrol or diesel engines) so that's:

9.06 * 3000 = 27180.00
- 9010.66
= €18169.34 - tax you'd pay on a new 3ltr engined car.

Because it's 5yrs old I'd get a 52% reduction to €8721.30. If it were only 4 years old that would be €10356.

The only way to be exempt from this tax is if you're moving to Portugal (like I did) and bringing your car with you (which you must have owned for at least 6 months previously).

It's because of these very high taxes (I believe Denmark also has similar taxes) that some car manufacturers reduce the base price of the car in Portugal to make the purchase price more acceptable. This is what then allows people in countries with low car tax (like the UK) to come to Portugal and buy a new car at a low base price and then pay the low car tax in the UK thus getting a car much more cheaply than from a UK dealer leading to all those rip-off Britain claims which aren't entirely true.

Of course, if the manufacturers are reducing the base price in Portugal and Denmark they've got to raise it elsewhere (like the UK) to break even so what was happening was that car buyers in the UK were unwittingly subsidising the outrageously high car tax in other EU countries.

AFAIK most car manufacturers have now synchronized base prices across the EU, at least in the Euro zone, meaning that customers in high tax countries just have to fork out.

IMO it's high time that car tax was harmonized across the EU as the current system goes against everything that the whole single market idea stands for. I'd love to know why it hasn't happened yet.

Michael.

 

Markus - I'm not sure that the loophole is about non-car producing countries since many VWs and Renaults are made in factories in Portugal but they have the car tax applied to them just the same as any other even though the car isn't imported. It's not duty or import tax, it's just car tax.

Paul - regardless of what many driving purists think about them (I'm not going to debate that here!), there's always been a demand for fast convertibles and they always fetch a premium over the non-convertible version.

Michael.

 

Is that like tobacco or alcohol tax? I think it's still duty, which applies to Scotch as much as Bourbon, and the general concept is free movement of 'duty paid in the EU' goods. Except for secondhand cars in Portugal (at least). And new cars everywhere.

'New Means of Transport' or 'NMTs' (seriously, this is UK Customs terminology...) are exceptions to the usual duty paid rules. If you import a new car from the EU then the vendor gets any VAT back in their country and the new owner has to pay VAT at the UK rate. This is presumably to allow Denmark and Portugal to operate extreme rates of tax.

Someone should just say 'no'. There is a common market and market forces apply to tax rates as much as prices. But I think the EU is too corrupt.

Paul

 

I've just bought a Hope XC rear hub. From a bike shop a replacement set of bearings is £15-£16. However, Hope were smart enough to use a standard bearing cartridge, the 6001 2RS. These can be obtained for around £5 for 10 (the hub takes 4 at once).

I also had a Hope Technology hub, and it was bomb-proof, however as somebody else said, it is very noisy, and at times was bloody annoying. Also I had a hope titanium b/b, which after a while began creaking, and nothing could stop it. eventually, hope invited me to their factory, where it was examined and then replaced, now that is customer service.

On the subject of HT leads, I had a VW 16v GTI, the leads for which cost £160 a set, and that was years ago!

 

Was putting things together last night, and the hope doesn't seem that noisy. However, that might be because it's full of grease at the moment (or maybe my old hub was just noisy). Having trouble with rear disc at the moment because of Marin's stupid removable rear disc mount which is completely skewed... I've had to take a file to it to face it somewhat. Might carry on with that until it works, or get a CNCed mount to replace the cast OEM one.

 

How exactly do you suggest I (or anyone else) just says 'no'?

There are proposals to change the EU car tax laws. I hope it happens soon.

The car tax rates in Portugal are just criminal. In a country where average wages are only 25-35% of countries like the UK and Germany it's outrageous to make cars more expensive than in any other EU country. It's a wonder than any Portuguese can actually afford a car. And yet you see no end of brand spanking new BMWs, Mercs, Ferraris etc tooling around Lisbon and Porto. The corrupt, money laundering, tax evading mafiosi live it up whilst the average man on the street can barely scrape a living together

Michael.

 

Well you could vote for EU reformers and against the type of politician who would take Portugal into (say) the Euro without a referendum.

Alternatively I'm sure that there's an EU law somewhere that mandates equal opportunity to trade or conduct business. Portugal is discriminating against its citizens in the internal market. Take them to court.

Paul

 

All the parties of any significance here (with the possible exception of the Communist Party) are pro-Europe and pro-Euro (even the most right wing Popular Party). In any case, since I'm not a citizen I don't get to vote. In another bit of absurd law I get to vote in the UK in the constituency where I last lived nearly 6 years ago and not in the country I've lived in for the last 6 years! In 4 years time (after 10 years of residency) I'll be able to get citizenship.

Taking Portugal to the EU court over car tax is an option but probably not a viable one unless I want it to consume my life (and money) for the next 5 years. By the time any decision was made it might well have been abandoned already.

It's good to know the EU do at least have a plan to harmonize car tax. I'm just mystified why this didn't happen along with everything else when the single market went 'live'.

Michael.