MF 1 - Naim 0

MO - I think that a large part of the cynicism is evident in the constant revamping of the model line up.

There is a steady stream of 'new and improved' gear which, if you read the glowing reviews, puts the 'slightly older and perhaps not as improved as we could make it' gear in the shade.

I have nothing against progress, but the rate at which Mr Michaelson's company makes progress seems a little quick to be genuine.

reg

 

Markus, many years ago I was a lowly sales assistant in a London store, selling mainly mass market kit. These days I am involved in other areas, but looking at possibly rejoining the fray at some point (although I doubt now is the time)

House sounds. No I can't think of anything that I find exceptional on all music at all times. For me, there is a lot of fine kit out there, but I haven't found anything that does everything. A truly relaxing system rarely has the excitement factor required for certain musical genres, and much of the more exciting stuff burns me out in a shorter time. Sometimes I want music to just sound mellow and pure and to allow me to concentrate on other things. At others I want to sit transfixed and forget everything else.

So far, probably the closest approach for me would be some of the modern valve amps, from the likes of Audio Research, BAT and Berning. Front ends from Wadia, Levinson or CD12. Speakers I enjoy are large panels and truly transparent dynamic speakers such as the larger Avalons, my Merlins, and the Verities.

I basically want the components in my setup to have chameleon like qualities, and this usually means they are highly transparent. I also look for full bandwidth. The Moon gear I am currently using has many of the qualities that I look for, capable of timing to match the finest from salisbury, but also having a mellow side when needed. I am using the TacT RCS2.2X with it, with the option of switching it in or out of circuit. Basically this setup gives me two systems in one, which I can select by the remote. It seems to cover all bases for me.

But all that is just me, and I fully understand that my tastes might not correspond with anyone else's. I try to hear the good points in all stuff I listen to but there are some manufacturers house sound I find simply devoid of anything I find appealing. It's not the kit itself I find annoting. It;s the owners that somehow feel there is only one true path to audio nirvana, and seem to feel nothing else exists worth listening to.

I don't know of an amplifier manufacturer that makes truly exceptional speakers, neither do I know of a speaker manufacturer that makes great electronics. And the best front ends IMO come from specialists in that field.

Whilst big valve amps would be nice, I listen to the system for an average of five hours a day, and the running costs, and hassle keep me from going down that route. Dream system? Wadia 861SE, Tact RCS2.2X, Audio Research Ref300 Mono's & Reference 2 Preamp, a good vinyl front end (I don't have enough experience here) and JBL 9800 K2,s.

I did say Dream

 

The last time I heard Moon kit, it was at a show driven by JM Lab floorstanders, and the sound was truly dire. But you can't tell from shows, so I'll reserve judgement.

Marco.

 

The Moon/SimAudio kit playing at the heathrow show (CD player + i-5 integrated) in the Perigee Audio room made easily the best sound of the show for me

A SimAudio i-5 is on my shortlist of amps when the time comes to upgrade. I've heard one in my system and it was awesome.

Michael.

 

where's this constant revamping?

No MOre than any other company. Infact, less than quite a few!

 

Perhaps they were driving rather than being driven, they'd have been less dire

petty?

 

You must be joking Mo!

They revamp about 3-5 times as often as any other specialist brand I know of! They are on approximately a 12 month product lifetime cycle which is on a par with Japanese consumer electronics.

 

they have done about 4 phono stages alone since the x series started, 308 amps, nu vista cds and amps, tri vista cds and amps, x dac, x24dac, upsampling dac, now a trivista dac, cd and preamp in one, integrated trivista, kw pre and powers, numerous revamps of the x integrated amps, to name just a few from the top of me head....I rest my case your honour....they ARE officially a a jap company in that respect..

what makes me wonder about them is that you keep seeing the trvistas appearing for sale..I wonder why...do the poor sods who bought them realise they are sound no better than a marantz 6000 ki, and are waking up from their morbid slumber :SLEEP:

 

erm...

Yep, i'm aware of all them and it's quite a bit, but I didn't realise that there's different divisions and rules. A company like arcam or marantz knock out plenty. Why is it aceptable for them and not MF?

I'm not defending them here. It makes no difference to me. I bought my MF and I like it. Just wondering why they seem to get such a slagging.

 

Merlin,

I think I could live with your dream system quite easily.

Now, if you don't mind another question: in one of your posts you said that the Living Voice Avatars one could hear at a certain dealer were different to the version a customer could buy. Is that based on knowledge, hearsay or speculation?

 

heresay says that the living voice guy can't setup a turntable properly...certainly can't design speakers...they were desinged by a professional audio company...the big ones, and the little ones are bastardized dali 104s..

mo, I think its the amount of stuff they bring out...it is certainly a lot more often than other companies, its marketing by saturation, and coupled with their STYLE of marketing, the drooling press, and the obvious fact that they are successful will cause a certain resentment...then the more voiciferous ones who like something more lively, read less MOrbidly dull, realise how boring it is and turn on them...I thought they were OK, until the x-series, I think they did start not just a change in product image and ethos, but the electronic design went dull...coincides with tim de para. going...I wonder who really does design the stuff for them...those boring looking engineers in suits you see in their staff fotos? I would not be at all suprised if they commission outsiders to do it...I bet this is pretty common in some companies

 

At last count three X-Series components X-A2 X24K and XCansV2.

Fair enough I bought both the DAC and Headphone amp *blind* so maybe lack of auditioning the competition allows me to be perhaps MOre satisfied than I should be. But both pieces seem to do the job well for me. The cans were as much to give me a headphone socket as anything, so job done there. The DAC just seemed to improve things all around.

The amp was the one thing I did test against a few others. No hardcore blood and sweat auditioning. (I was upgrading from a philps av amp ). Yes the looks played their part, and the review at least made me aware of it. But, it just seemed to do MOre things right than the others.

Perhaps when I next plan on upgrading i'll come across something which will open this blind mans eyes. Ognorance is bliss? Well, I like the sound of it now, and I think alot of the criticism aimed at MF (performance), is exagerated and perhaps born from the obvious negative feelings towards them due to non-performance reasons.

Oh, and my LED's bluer than yours

 

each to is own...if you like it, its right for you....

 

Sigh.

Living Voice Avatar:

Hifi + ''Product of the year''

Hifi + '' Editors choice''

Hifi World ''Editors Choice''

Hifi Choice '' Editors Choice''


It is true that the auditorium series was developed because of a need to fill a customer demand for a sensitive floorstander. Previously Dali models were sold and modified by Definitive audio.

The avatars use different drivers, different sized cabinets, different bracing, different crossover components, different plinths and different veneers to the dali 104.

Comparing the two is a little like comparing an Ls3/5a with a B&W 805 - they are both designed to be standmounts designed for studio monitoring.

NB - the first two paragraphs come from the conversation I had with Kevin at definitive/living voice when I bought my own speakers from him - and I have paraphrased from memory.

Cheers
Chris

 

Chris, You shouldnt just go by what the mags say you know

 

Markus,

Second hand info I'm afraid, but from a source I trust. It is a far from uncommon practice to have prototypes for shows etc that feature more extensive bracing or upgraded crossover components.

None of it matters with the Living Voices, which I consider to be immensly enjoyable speakers stock spec or not IMO.

As for some of the comments regarding cheap drivers, experience shows it's not the drivers that count, so much as what you do with them. Some speakers comprising the world's most advanced and distortion free drive units just totally fail to communicate with most people, JM Labs being a good example, which people looking to capture the energy present in the music, find very dull indeed.

They excell at what is unfortunately referred to over here as HiFi, namely a total lack of colouration and seemingly very low levels of distortion. Sadly they seem to lose something in the process for me. The Auditoriums may use rather prosaic drive units, but more importantly they are fun to listen to for most people.

 

even worse, believe the words of the guy who wants to sell the stuff...tell you anything to get a sale...

well...dali 104bs..sensitivity...92 dbs....my computer programs says the vifa drivers used in the lvs are 92 dbs in a d'appolito parallel arrangement...hifi choice review of the dalis and living voices by none other than paul messenger, know for his accuracy says VERY similar things about both speakers....slighlty hooded treble, lively dynamics, rich tonality, its uncanny....

cabinet size is about identical at 35 litres...
sure, put a different covering on and sit them on a piece of metal to lift them up a bit..

probably more akin to comparing a rogers ls35a to a harbeth hlp3....common heritage and design ethos

there is not that much skill in designing a speaker nowadays...select your intended market and price, select a woofer, put it in a computer program to simulate a box, choose a volume, select a tweeter to match it, use a crossover optimizer to do all the hard work, make about 5 crossovers, decide which one you like best and gives a flat response...get someone to build the cabinet, and then charge the poor punters a fortune

 

Mr Data -

Like WM says, I believe you may be in the industry. I cant imagine many other people having a computer program that provides a sensitivity figure for a box volume.

If so, shouldnt you come clean ?

Chris

 

Chris,

Sorry to say such software is readily available free on the net.

Anyone who thinks however that simply taking the results of such a program and building a box will result in a world class speaker, shows a naivity that suggests anything but industry involvement to me.

 

Chris, Ian's not in the Industry, he tried a lot of kit and like most ( of a like a lot of us) leaves him cold, he's more cynical than even myself, but basical he's a decent enough guy (Have spoken to him a few times on the phone), he's just a little disilliousioned with 'game' at the moment, but he is a man after your own heart, a valver Tone