more fundamentalism

Status
Not open for further replies.
These secondary magnetic fields oppose the original signal - the result is distortion.
Click to expand...
The above is from the DNM site. This indicates that when you publish the distortion figures between two identical lengths of DNM and another cable which has identical LCR characteristics to DNM we should see greater distortion. I can't wait :)
 
BD, if you want to stick to the accuracy path, it's best to avoid meaningless terms like PR&T. And "dynamically real" for that matter. If a perfect (i.e., perfectly accurate) amp is no more than a device for precisely reproducing an amplified version of its input signal, then such subjective terms have no place in the discussion, surely?

-- Ian
 
Lee,

I have a better idea... why don't you the following experience:

Compare equal lengths of Naim NAC A5 and DNM speaker cables which are of similar construction, the only difference being the use of stranded conductors in the former and single solid core conductors in the latter, and then tell us what you've found out...
 
sideshowbob said:
BD, if you want to stick to the accuracy path, it's best to avoid meaningless terms like PR&T. And "dynamically real" for that matter. If a perfect (i.e., perfectly accurate) amp is no more than a device for precisely reproducing an amplified version of its input signal, then such subjective terms have no place in the discussion, surely?

-- Ian
Click to expand...

Yes they have Ian. What the ear missies most with "hi-fi" systems is the dynamic impact that it is present in real sounds. That's why they are perceived as unreal sounds.
 
If the amp is perfectly accurate or even close to it then, by definition, if the dynamics are missing, that's a problem caused by either the source or by the speakers, surely? Or are you saying that an amp has to do more than perfectly reproduce its input signal to be described as "accurate"?

-- Ian
 
sideshowbob said:
If the amp is perfectly accurate or even close to it then, by definition, if the dynamics are missing, that's a problem caused by either the source or by the speakers, surely? Or are you saying that an amp has to do more than perfectly reproduce its input signal to be described as "accurate"?

-- Ian
Click to expand...

Of course not Ian. When the amp is perfectly accurate (output equal to the input) you have all the dynamics you can possible have from it.

Why do you think I now like metal drivers? Because they have the best ratio stiffness/mass and thus they can accelerate and stop quicker, because they are lighter, and with less distortion (break-up modes), because they are also stiffer.
 
Everybody knows that Naim amps only have a semblance of the PRaT thing by emphasising the leading edge of the note, at the expense of the rest of it :D
Some are fooled, and some not (just like speakers with a lovely big hump at about 50Hz pretending to do bass fool some into thinking they have extension)
When it comes to dynamics, that same "everybody" mentioned above knows that there's no substitute for cubes.. I mean who ever heard of a proper music studio using a single ended triode, f'rinstance? (or a Naim for that matter ;))
 
LiloLee said:
The above is from the DNM site. This indicates that when you publish the distortion figures between two identical lengths of DNM and another cable which has identical LCR characteristics to DNM we should see greater distortion. I can't wait
Click to expand...

BerylliumDust said:
Lee,

I have a better idea... why don't you the following experience:

Compare equal lengths of Naim NAC A5 and DNM speaker cables which are of similar construction, the only difference being the use of stranded conductors in the former and single solid core conductors in the latter, and then tell us what you've found out...
Click to expand...
So now, according to you, what Lee might subjectively hear with such a test above is more valid than what can be measured? What happened to measurement is the truth and all that?

Why don't you start providing some evidence, then people might start to take you more seriously. Same goes for all your null tests. We want detailed experimental methodology descriptions and we want to see oscilloscope traces. Then what you have to say might become something more than just a fundamentalist rant. Why should Lee or anyone else go out of their way to run experiments to test your theories which we know to be wrong anyway?

Sorry, I did say I wasn't going to continue in this debate but that hole you just dug for yourself was too tempting :p

Michael.
 
I used to revere dnm cables on reputation, got one at last, no effin different to my home made van damme, at least they don't cost an arm like some, but even so for cheap single wire they do, and boy, tbh, they are built like crap, cheap thin wire and plugs.

its time we stopped mincing words and pulling punches with this stuff, a lot of it is oem stock, non special research, psuedo false science, or even blatant lies to hoodwink sucker consumers into paying a fortune. there I have said it.and the sad thing is, a lot of us have bought it/been conned.

I think Michael's system is way transparent enuff, with chord / non os dac, that preamp, and other stuff.

final answer I am thinking after lots of tinkering lately, is its a total and utter distraction, and you can enjoy music with any amp/ stuff, its an academic thing differences, yes they may be there, well are they better? different, yes.....
... valves do give more, but I would question a bit if I am actually getting more enjoyment by listening to better stuff.
I have neglected music buying by actually worrying like a dog over a bone about kit, jst get on with it and enjoy the bloody music, you don't need worry about little things.

nothing is accurate as they all sound different.which is the truth?
actually, bd your accurate whatever you mean, and my prior question was never answered, is a subjective non-object idea, not a cast iron unchanging thing as you would like to believe, its just delusional.

The great hifi lie:

Its a fact, the mags and manufacturers are in it together, they would have you believe by spending more on your hifi, you can enjoy your music more.
This is a blatant lie, forget about gear, just listen and enjoy, and don't worry about it. It is futile.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
michaelab said:
Why don't you start providing some evidence, then people might start to take you more seriously. Same goes for all your null tests. We want detailed experimental methodology descriptions and we want to see oscilloscope traces. Then what you have to say might become something more than just a fundamentalist rant. Why should Lee or anyone else go out of their way to run experiments to test your theories which we know to be wrong anyway?

Michael.
Click to expand...

Michael,

If you can come to my house and see how I null test things... why don't you shut up and come over here...
 
BerylliumDust said:
Of course not Ian. When the amp is perfectly accurate (output equal to the input) you have all the dynamics you can possible have from it.
Click to expand...

OK. So what's all this waffle about "PR&T" supposed to mean then? An amp is either accurate or it isn't, end of story. No need to start using all these dreadfully subjective terms like PR&T.

-- Ian
 
Lt Cdr Data said:
I used to revere dnm cables on reputation, got one at last, no effin different to my home made van damme, at least they don't cost an arm like some, but even so for cheap single wire they do, and boy, tbh, they are built like crap, cheap thin wire and plugs.
Click to expand...

Cheap thin wire is a very good thing... the plugs are not though. I use bare wire.
 
sideshowbob said:
OK. So what's all this waffle about "PR&T" supposed to mean then? An amp is either accurate or it isn't, end of story. No need to start using all these dreadfully subjective terms like PR&T.

-- Ian
Click to expand...

You are right Ian... it was just a way of subjectively describing what I hear.

Accuracy can be heard...
 
What is the goal of hifi, to listen to music.

why because its enjoyable.
it stirs emotions, its tribal.

Does your accurate system give you more enjoyment than my inaccurate one?

Does the amount of cash spend give you more enjoyment, maybe maybe not.

tbh, I think the most fun is had at the bottom, with the cheaper stuff, where you can pay £200, £400, and get better than £2k perhaps.
 
BD's becomming a naimie :yikes:
time to flog the naim and go for something else.... then again naaaah i like it too much :D

cheers


julian.
 
BerylliumDust said:
Lee,

I have a better idea... why don't you the following experience:

Compare equal lengths of Naim NAC A5 and DNM speaker cables which are of similar construction, the only difference being the use of stranded conductors in the former and single solid core conductors in the latter, and then tell us what you've found out...
Click to expand...

I'd rather wait for you to measure the difference. You have to realise that I am from the 'cables do make a difference' camp, who has been told that I am imagining this, so therefore if I did do the listening test it would be invalid.

Measurement is everything so I am told.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BerylliumDust said:
If you can come to my house and see how I null test things... why don't you shut up and come over here...
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that when someone makes ridiculous claims the onus tends to be on them to provide the evidence first.

Evidence isn't: "I null tested it and all I could hear was silence".

Evidence is something like:
- I connected w to x and y to z etc. etc. until the whole setup is explained
- I played X piece of music and the residual signal on the scope was n millivolts RMS
- I then repeated the procedure with cable/amplifier B and the residual signal on the scope was n millivolts RMS

Michael.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top