new cartridge question

[RobHolt]

Hi,



Two or three Denon DL-103.

Most sub £ 1,000 MC's do not provide a truely material improvement over it, the majority of them is just different and often less consistent from LP to LP due to stupid choice of stylus shape (eg hyper elliptical/fineline/et al).

Ciao T

I disagree entirely there Thorsten - and yes I have read your articles on the subject
Most lower end cartridges suffer precisely because they have tips which cannot trace high frequencies with low distortion - the minor radius of the tip is simply too wide. The Denon with its spherical tip disguises the problem better than most but it's frequency response rolls off progressively as it tracks the disc. I recall Noel Keywood measuring a 103 and finding the response 6db down at 18khz on inner grooves referenced the the outermost track.
VDH, FG1 and MR give far better results IMO on all but early mono discs where the Denon woks well.

I'd suggest, in order of price and performance:

Denon DL110 - stupidly good for the money.
Ortofon MC15/super - Excellent budget MC with a FG tip.
Ortofon MC25fl - like the 15 but better.
AT OC9ML - Should cost about £700 but can be had for £299
Lyra Dorian. Yes i know this is twice the budget but they are sublime cartridges. I have an Argo i but understand from users of the latest Dorian that it gets very close indeed.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

I disagree entirely there Thorsten - and yes I have read your articles on the subject

I suggest you read them again.

Most lower end cartridges suffer precisely because they have tips which cannot trace high frequencies with low distortion - the minor radius of the tip is simply too wide.

Correct, however this is down to using too large a radius, regardless on the shape. The DL-103 has an apropriate stylus radius. In fact, the EFFECTIVE stylus size with the 103 is smaller than that of an even SLIGHTLY misaligned line contact stylus (be it in overhang or VTA) where it matters, namely in the groove.

The Denon with its spherical tip disguises the problem better than most but it's frequency response rolls off progressively as it tracks the disc. I recall Noel Keywood measuring a 103 and finding the response 6db down at 18khz on inner grooves referenced the the outermost track.

I do not what NK did to get this result, using a pink noise LP and a spectrum analyser my 103 is flat to 20KHz (including phono stage) all the way into the inner groves.

VDH, FG1 and MR give far better results IMO on all but early mono discs where the Denon woks well.

They only give superior results at the zero error angle points of the pivoted tonearm, in a linear tracking tonearm with perfect alignment and in both cases the SRA being adjusted exactly to match the way the record was cut AND ONLY if the grove walls where pressed/cut at exactly 45 degrees.

This means in 90% of all cases the results are inferior, observably so. That is before we take note that only spherical stylii work correctly with the pre-distortion (tracing simulator) cut into the majority of LP's from around the mid 1960's all the way to 1980's.

Or in other words, they work fine, if setup correctly, with all the modern re-issues on vinyl all the reviewers are so fond of using as reference but they make perfect condition original pressings sound as if "they had surface damage".

Ciao T

 

[RobHolt]

The 103 has an 8um tip (though it often measures 10um) - audibly useless for tracing strong HF at ends of side. Listen to any album with strong sibilance and the deterioration as you approach the end of side is nasty - on the 103 or any other cartridge with a spherical tip or 'standard' eliptical. Playing such material on my 103 and LC tipped Lyra shows the difference to be anything but subtle. If your 103 measures flat across the entire disc there is somethng wrong with the measurement because with a 10um tip that is impossible. Surely you are not suggesting that an 8 or 10um tip does not suffer scanning loss or pinch effect?

I don't need to read the articles again - I understand what you are saying and believe that your conclusions are wrong. I don't doubt that LC tips are more fussy wrt setup than a spherical but far too much fuss is made about cartridge geometry with most of the adjustments made being inaudible.

The 103 has many fine qualities but HF tracing ability isn't one of them.

 

[Uncle Ants]

I don't need to read the articles again - I understand what you are saying and believe that your conclusions are wrong. I don't doubt that LC tips are more fussy wrt setup than a spherical but far too much fuss is made about cartridge geometry with most of the adjustments made being inaudible.

You can count me among the doubters as well. I understand what Thorsten is saying but to be frank ... I have plenty of 50s, 60s and 70s originals in minty condition which do not display a trace of sounding as though "they had surface damage" played with various types of fineline/microridge/whatever styli - current stylus has an FG80 and they sound great.

What is more some records which clearly showed end of side distortion and in some cases obvious wear when played with a spherical or bog standard elliptical, didn't with a fine line.

So either The Thorsten Theory is wrong or I'm hallucinating.

 

[SCIDB]

Hi Chris (Bottleneck),

Why don't you get another Kontrapunt A. It's a excellent cartridge for the money. It has a good tip and sounds very good for the money.

SCIDB

 

[nando]

Hi Chris (Bottleneck),

Why don't you get another Kontrapunt A. It's a excellent cartridge for the money. It has a good tip and sounds very good for the money.

SCIDB

i use kontrapunt b, also at oc9, in different turntables and arms, i find both to be super but as a budget the rhonda red at£300.00 is very good value for money, there again phono stages do have a lot to do with how much you can get out of your cartridge,

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

The 103 has an 8um tip (though it often measures 10um) - audibly useless for tracing strong HF at ends of side.

The Denon Dl-103 has a 16.5um Stylus tip.
The Ortofon MC25FL has a stylus described as 40um with an 8um radius.

In other words the smallest radius on the MC25FL is around halve that of the DL-103, but the stylus is VERY wide (nearly three times the width of the DL-103), assuming the Denon quotes the radius and not diameter.

It is a trivial excercise in geometry to work out how much stylus rake angle deviation or tracking angle deviation it permissable before the aparent radius of non-ideally aligned fine line style stylus equals or exceeds that of the spherical stylus in the DL-103.

For the rest, I have no problems with HF tracking with the DL-103 on my turntable, I do however have them with a cartridge sporting a "Gyger S" stylus UNLESS I use a different alignment of the stylus for the innermost groves.

Ciao T

POST SCRIPTVM....

In the inner groves the velocity of groove movement is 210mm/S giving a 20KHz modulation a length for a full cycle of around 10um. So, in theory if my calculations are right a 2.5um radius would be required. Clearly this is not really not actually the case, so a fairly larger radius seems still to work sufficiently....

 

[RobHolt]

Hi,



The Denon Dl-103 has a 16.5um Stylus tip.
The Ortofon MC25FL has a stylus described as 40um with an 8um radius.

In other words the smallest radius on the MC25FL is around halve that of the DL-103, but the stylus is VERY wide (nearly three times the width of the DL-103).

It is a trivial excercise in geometry to work out how much stylus rake angle deviation or tracking angle deviation it permissable before the aparent radius of non-ideally aligned fine line style stylus equals or exceeds that of the spherical stylus in the DL-103.

For the rest, I have no problems with HF tracking with the DL-103 on my turntable, I do however have them with a cartridge sporting a "Gyger S" stylus UNLESS I use a different alignment of the stylus for the innermost groves.

Ciao T

The 40um of the Ortofon relates to the footprint in contact with the groove wall - top to bottom IIRC which you would expect with a line contact - hence 'line'. 8um for the minor radius is still too wide - my ears and 25 years of playing with cartridges tell me 3-5um is best for clean HF across the disc.

Look out for the upcoming test of the 103 in next months Hi-Fi world. I'll put money on the tests showing a nose diving FR at end of side and distortion which makes 1st generation CD at -60db look clean

 

[Stereo Mic]

The 103 almost made me give up on vinyl. In a high resolution system, I'm afraid I found it wholly unsatisfactory. I suspect Rob is right. Whatever the technical reasons, I would not consider one again. Plenty of sub £1K cartridges make it sound broken to my ears.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

The 40um of the Ortofon relates to the footprint in contact with the groove wall - top to bottom IIRC which you would expect with a line contact - hence 'line'.

That makes it even wider up top, based on what I learned in geometry 56um....

8um for the minor radius is still too wide

Funny you'd recommend a cartridge having it then.

Look out for the upcoming test of the 103 in next months Hi-Fi world. I'll put money on the tests showing a nose diving FR at end of side and distortion which makes 1st generation CD at -60db look clean

Me too, but for different reason....

I'd believe the measurements more with a mag that has put less stock in slagging the DL-103 off....

I repeat, I put a record on with -20db pink noise and on the spectrum analyser the differences at the topend where very small (within what is commonly called experimental error). Of course, what appeared to be 20KHz signal may have been 100% 2nd HD of what happened at 10KHz, on reflection, unlikely....

Ciao T

 

[Markus S]

The Denon Dl-103 has a 16.5um Stylus tip.
The Ortofon MC25FL has a stylus described as 40um with an 8um radius.

In other words the smallest radius on the MC25FL is around halve that of the DL-103, but the stylus is VERY wide (nearly three times the width of the DL-103), assuming the Denon quotes the radius and not diameter.

How do you come to that conclusion? The 40 µm is the radius, not the width. How wide the stylus actually is cannot be determined from the radius figure quoted.

 

[3DSonics]

Hi,

How do you come to that conclusion? The 40 µm is the radius, not the width. How wide the stylus actually is cannot be determined from the radius figure quoted.

You are right of course. Without having the specification explained and illustrated one has to guess. I guess I guessed wrong.

Ciao T

 

[bottleneck]

Guess you ain't interested then?

Hi Andi.

Sorry, been away for a few days not had the chance to reply.
I think I would have to hear a cart in the context of my own system to get much from a demo. Thanks for the invite though Most kind.

 

[bottleneck]

Hi Chris (Bottleneck),

Why don't you get another Kontrapunt A. It's a excellent cartridge for the money. It has a good tip and sounds very good for the money.

SCIDB

This is something I'm considering highly. The price from Germany is only about £280 plus p+p. (*edit for correct price)

Ortofohn have recently launched a whole load of new Kontrapunkts and other cartridges. I do find the choice confusing.

I did note when I moved from a MC15 super II to the Kontrapunkt very little (if any) audible difference.

I am wondering if other cartridges may sound as good in the range, or if there is a better one.

It only seems to be Ortofohns which are v cheap abroad.. which is what specifically attracts me to them. I tend to buy bargains when I see them, as long as the sound is ok.

 

[nando]

hi andy, i played arround with all sort of cartridges over the years as i have a very large collection of vinyl, during wich i have also tried phono stages of all sorts, they do make a lot of difference to the way carts. can perform, not always the expensive ones are the best suted, denon, ortofon, audio tech. sumiko, is all a matter of taste, i took a step down now trying the rhonda red,so far so good.regards.

 

[nando]

hi andy, i played arround with all sort of cartridges over the years as i have a very large collection of vinyl, during wich i have also tried phono stages of all sorts, they do make a lot of difference to the way carts. can perform, not always the expensive ones are the best suted, denon, ortofon, audio tech. sumiko, is all a matter of taste, i took a step down now trying the rhonda red,so far so good.regards.

 

[RobHolt]

That makes it even wider up top, based on what I learned in geometry 56um....

Funny you'd recommend a cartridge having it then.

The MC25fl costs £250 and is naturally a price/performance compromise. If you asked me to recommend a cartridge at £500 you'd get a very different answer

The slagging off of the 103 in HFW comes from the editor and Noel Keywood- both on record for many, many years as not liking the 103 for the same reasons that I find it flawed. We do have to remember that the things costs £75 though and at that price it can be forgiven. What we shouldn't do is expect it to compete with models at five times the price IMO and that's the issue I have with it's proponents.

 

[SCIDB]

Hi Chris,

Another cartridge to look at is the Denon DL304. This a moving coil at around £200. Very good sounding and detailed. I have used one to good effect.

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Denon_8.html


SCIDB

 

[andi]

Hi Andi.

Sorry, been away for a few days not had the chance to reply.
I think I would have to hear a cart in the context of my own system to get much from a demo. Thanks for the invite though Most kind.

OK thats cool:MILD:

 

[Dynamic Turtle]

Bottleneck,

I currently switch between two carts, the MC15 MkII and DV20X-H. Despite the DV costing £250 more, I wouldn't necessarily call it "superior", it just has a different presentation. The Ortofon sounds a tad cleaner/detailed - and offers a more "hi-fi" sound to these ears.

The DV has a richer, warmer tone which encourages longer listening. It has nice solidity & presence in the mid-range (which from your other posts, you seem to value highly).

Of course, this is just in my experience and should be taken with the requisite amount of sodium chloride.

I'm afraid I can't weigh-in on the DL103 debate, but it seems churlish to complain so much about the performance of a £75 cartridge. However, if it's that good Thorsten, why have so many other manufacturers chosen alternative stylus designs in much higher-priced offerings (rather than "refinements" of the Denon design)? Patent issues??

DT