new scientist

Snoo said:
Maybe we need to screen our ear canals from neurological interference.

I'd like to see RA make that cable!
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Perhaps he could start selling curtains to put in front of your hifi, combined with some kind of drug or hypnotherapy treatment which would erase all memory of any "cheap" cables and interconnects used in your system.

I'm sure it would make everything sound a lot better.
 
zanash said:
place cable x in one and y in another play one cd and switch between ....differences are immediate
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I have to say that that particular experiment pretty much did it for me; My Arcam Aplha 8se has two outputs and having been lent some kimber cables to try out I compared my diy silver interconnects with the kimber cables, then my silver cables against my diy copper cables, then those against some audioquest cables etc etc. The result? Much guffawing from my other half who though the whole thing was, well, laughable, and much annoyance to me as I was forced to admit that I couldn't hear any bloody difference between any of them. This despite me being utterly convinced of significant differences when I'd previously 'upgraded' my cables.

I never went as far as comparing the really cheap shit freebie interconnects with my other pairs, as I was too worried that I wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

That said, I still use the interconnects that I originally thought I preferred, as I still find it difficult to explain the 'obvious and immediate' differences I'd heard in the past and conscious that if my mind/hearing could have been deceived once, it could've happened when I did the A/B tests also......so basically I'm hedging my bets! :D What's more I've also been contemplating 'upgrading' the internal wiring in my speakers, so there's probably no bigger audiophool that me! :rolleyes:
 
la toilette said:
I never went as far as comparing the really cheap shit freebie interconnects with my other pairs, as I was too worried that I wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
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Done that! I once borrowed a set of über-expensive Nordost Valhallas from the Swiss distributor over Christmas. I also happened to have one of those ICs, the red/white plug ones that used to be given away with Japanese cassette recorders (perhaps still are). And the difference? None. More exactly, absolutely none.
 
tones said:
Done that! I once borrowed a set of über-expensive Nordost Valhallas from the Swiss distributor over Christmas. I also happened to have one of those ICs, the red/white plug ones that used to be given away with Japanese cassette recorders (perhaps still are). And the difference? None. More exactly, absolutely none.
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What do you use now? Have you sold all your interconnects and replaced them with the red & white plug ones?

I have to say, that's what I'm thinking of doing.
 
owl37400 said:
What do you use now? Have you sold all your interconnects and replaced them with the red & white plug ones?

I have to say, that's what I'm thinking of doing.
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I never had any to sell. I have only one set of "quality" (silver) ICs, bought when I believed they made a difference. They do look purdy, even if I can't see them, but they sound just the same as all the rest, snappy WBT plugs and all.

All the rest are a mixture of freebies, cheapies and Linn (black) ICs, which come free with the various Linn boxes I have in the system upstairs. The long subwoofer and turntable ones (3M) I made myself.
 
Perhaps we should initiate a "cable amnesty" ...

Those of us who have bought ICs or whatever, been rather disappointed by the absence of any improvement, but kept them anyway out of shame at our un-golden ears (or just because they look pretty...) could hand them all in, auction them off and donate the money to charity...
 
owl37400 said:
Perhaps he could start selling curtains to put in front of your hifi, combined with some kind of drug or hypnotherapy treatment which would erase all memory of any "cheap" cables and interconnects used in your system.

I'm sure it would make everything sound a lot better.
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I think they already make them. Have you never heard a reviewer use the term 'lifting the veil'.
 
The directionality of a cable would apply only if the geometry, terminations and or network (if it had one) would influence the electron flow. Otherwise, all things being equal...well, they would be equal, thereby generating no discernable diifference in the e'flow. I've found that musical components sound good irregardless of the cables. They do however sound their best with superior wire.
 
Cables are an oddity I admit it, but as I've said many times before the most convincing difference was between QED profile silver 12 and Chord Odessey. So if you have the cash and time get these two and try it yourself. Honestly!

Apart from that, I'm out of the conversation!
Tim.
 
this really is a "never the twain shall meet" topic for any hifi discussion.

It's nice to see it being discussed without a single rock being thrown, or even picked up.



My own personal view...
If anyone did a DBT test on every single element of hifi, I would predict that the component most likely to achieve statistical difference would be the loudspeaker. If I start again with hifi some time after I move house (I've only got a few components left and a study system) - my efforts and money will be biased towards getting the best loudspeaker possible.

I wish more DBT tests were done in hifi. It would be nice to remove the chrome, glowing glass tubes, attractive electrostatics and horns from the whole purchasing decision, and make some blind choices based on DBT preferences...whatever they may be.

The results would be interesting, at least.
 
I'd put my mortgage on it also. The observation that loudspeakers sound different couldn't possibly be called extraordinary. It is true any sighted subjective appraisal of any piece of kit will be subject to personal bias, including loudspeakers, and this will continue to play its part in forming the personal experience - but loudspeakers really do sound different! Proved and provable.

The observation that cables sound different (where resistance and reactance are the same or similar) is extraordinary. Is this human expectation manifesting an experience that does not reflect reality? Certainly a difficult pill to swallow for the zealous believers but one that is thus far consistent with evidence from blind tests.

Unfortunately the hi-fi magazines have sold out to the manufacturers and the marketplace making scientific enquiry unlikely. It's much easier to dumb-down and pander to populist beliefs and of course it sells more magazines.

I did notice HiFi Crtitic trying distance itself from the rubber-stamping mainstream, I wonder if they could be petitioned to go where the others fear to tread? Into the valley of ABX?
 
This post is cool, we have I think got right to the heart of Hi-Fi and in doing so revealed a little about human nature. If I can voice an opinion on the comments made about listening and hearing of effects and possibly the double blind thing. I feel that, from my own experiences in life, not just music, or playing an instrument, that we are to all intense and purposes 'perfect' at whatever we do relating to the world around us. To say we could not hear something because the change is too small is applying the human understanding of a machine or device to the mind/body which I think is incorrect. I think the human is capable of detecting any change no matter how small as it operates on an analogue principal. I learnt to play the violin as a child using my subconcious (part of the suzuki method in which music to be learnt is played to you during sleep) and the music comes to your consciousness when you start to play the piece. Anyhow I have digressed, it is known to me that when I concentrate on something I am actually just limiting how I look at something with my mind and can absorb/notice/understand things which are much more subtle when I 'turn off' my conscious focus and let my mind do what it does without me controlling it. I hope you can understand what I am saying. I have experienced this in martial arts as well as playing the violin and listening to music. I could propose that the act of forcing yourself to listen in fact stops you from 'hearing' everything and this would make me say that double blind tests are not really reliable when used with something like music which is in fact an emotional thing in truth. If you read the page at http://brain.web-us.com/thescience.htm#Various Uses Of Audio With Embedded Binaural Beats then you will see that we do not know the limits of human 'hearing' at all. Cheers Ben.
 
I've also come to the conclusion that loudspeakers are the most variable element in a hifi system and therefore the bit you should worry about most. Interesting to hear others saying the same. Especially given the accepted wisdom amongst many that source is all and you should concentrate your efforts at that end of the chain. How did this notion take hold?
 
I could propose that the act of forcing yourself to listen in fact stops you from 'hearing' everything and this would make me say that double blind tests are not really reliable when used with something like music
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You could. But it holds no water Ben.

If you ask someone to first listen sighted and they say they can hear a difference and then introduce a screen to remove visual bias, and then ask again, the only variable is the introduction of a screen. Any test-induced stress (ââ'¬Å"the act of forcing yourself to listenââ'¬Â) is a constant both sighted and unsighted. Beige cloth covered screens do not cause people to suddenly and inexplicably loose their faculty of critical listening.

This is the anti-scientific sentiment put about by John Atkinson of Stereophile, who of course has much vested interest to do so.
 
Hello Mosfet, what I was meaning is that when you concentrate on something it limits your perception of that thing or rather constricts your perception of it. The most sensitive we can be is when using our subconscious mind as opossed to our (analytical) conscious mind. Did you read the web link about the brain and sound?
 
No you cant. Thats the point. These tests are elaborate for a reason - its called proven scientific methods. That is what built valves transistors and put men on the moon - not relying on subjective techniques.

Differences due to the lcr characteristics or shielding and their interface with the two conencted units. And thats all. nothing worth more than a couple of quid per metre and the effects are usually small. I camn hear a difference between cartridge and phono stage if I use cables of differing capacitance - but that is to be expected given the well understood parameters of the setup.

The only pseudo scientific clap trap belongs to those poo-pooing scientific method in favour of "cable poltergeists".

Plenty of things thought to be obvious have been shown to be incorrect - like the earth being flat.

If you did enough tests with enough people and the right methodology you would find the difference in any component if it existed.

There are very definate limits on changes the human ear can hear - say 0.1 2nd harmonic or 0.5db loudness change etc etc. I am afraid our ears have no special status and are really only very good at tasks that aid survivial specifically communication. I could very easily change a signal and noone on earth could hear the difference.

Isnt the net energy tansfer due to the load? With zero load and a super conducting cable their would be no loss at all right? ;)
zanash said:
these double blind test ....linked to ...not all double blind test

why do you need a stupidly elaborate test when

A. you can rely on your ears ...you can can't you ?
or
b. find a cdp with two output feeding two inputs on pre amp with remote control .

place cable x in one and y in another play one cd and switch between ....differences are immediate

if you've not tried don't knock it ..

this method eliminates all the pseudo scientific clap trap shown in the linked DBT

you also get instant results without having to leave your listening position.
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