Nordost power cables

Anecdotal evidence (e.g. see Google groups) does seem to suggest that invariably people who claim to hear a difference with cables etc. cannot repeat this in a blind test and fail to identify what was 'easy' to hear when they knew what was changed.

This would seem to suggest that some differences are 'imagined'. I think that people should be open to the concept that they are imagining differences.

Thanks to the 'Internet sceptics' I have changed from believing my cables sound subtly different to believing my cables sound the same. The cables haven't changed, only my belief and this has 100% influenced what I hear. Of course, the benefit is that I will never have to buy another cable!

So before believing all of these reviews, why not try and see if you can convince yourself that cables sound the same?

Reviews are also probably exaggerated. In that power cable review we have the following quote: "Louise? She almost fell off the sofa!". I am guessing that she didn't. Or else Roy pushed her. I mean think about it. Have you ever 'almost fell from the sofa'?
 
I read the review with some interest and then decided it was all cobblers and put a record on instead. Who ever said that blind testing is never carried out on this stuff hence the results should be treated with scepticism was spot on.

I have just changed speaker cables from VDH 122 to some super tricky PC OCC jobbies (20 quid on ebay before anyone starts!!) and it hasn't made a blind bit of difference, looks nice though.

As for the mains I have now tried all sorts of stuff from RA and if there is a difference I can't hear it so it all went back.

As someone who has worked in sales and marketing for the last 15 years I suggest that this has alot to do with the lack of consistent volume buyers for hi end audio and the fact that when they do buy they usually keep the kit a while, retailers and manufacturers need something to plug this gap in their sales cycle and if someone can delude themself that 300 quid for a kettle lead is money well spent so be it. To present these cables abilities as a proven fact is rubbish however and until I see a double blind review conduced like a real experiment I will continue to regard all such reviews as fraud.

As for "Louise? She almost fell off the sofa!" she probably had the price list in her hand at the time!

Sorry to all you believers but the more I try out this stuff the less of it I believe.

Room treatment and set up, now there's stuff that does work...
 
Just to add a final bit...

If you are plugging your kit into the same ring main as the rest of your household electrical stuff then it will not be performing to its optimum. Easiest way to prove this is to unplug everything else (that you can...) and then have a listen...

PS I do hear differances because there are differances.
I, like some others, will reject something If it doesn't benefit or if I can't tell the differance.

If you have not altered your mains supply to your stereo then I suppose the 'source first' principle doesn't apply to you then, does it?

PS: I can only speak from my own experience...
 
Yes but you are also speaking from your own belief. Your 'proof' is simply reinforcing your preconceived belief. 'Real' proof (well, probably the best you can do in hi-fi) would be for you to reliably identify the two conditions in a blind test. If you believed there was no difference, would you hear one?

Michealab, I note you say about the Roy Gregory review that "At the very least I'm going to have to borrow one of those leads from a dealer to check it out" but you should genuinely consider that the statement "Louise? She almost fell off the sofa!" could, I believe, be shown to be demonstrably false and indicate that the author is prone to gross exaggeration and hyperbole and is, therefore, an unreliable 'reporter. Do you honestly belief that Louise was, at any point, in danger of falling off the sofa?

Can we accept that Roy Gregory can be relied upon to accurately, and without recourse to 'purple prose' and gross exaggeration, report the sound of two power cables when, I believe, he cannot be be relied upon to accurately report on the real, physical event of Louise being in grave and present danger of falling off a sofa?
 
Can we accept that Roy Gregory can be relied upon to accurately, and without recourse to 'purple prose' and gross exaggeration, report the sound of two power cables when, I believe, he cannot be be relied upon to accurately report on the real, physical event of Louise being in grave and present danger of falling off a sofa?
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Perhaps she was extremely drunk.

IME, Roy Gregory is the most hyperbolic journalist in UK audio. His magazine's not bad, though, he has the sense to employ Paul Messenger, and Jimmy Hughes seems to write more sensibly in HiFi+ than he does anywhere else.

-- Ian
 
I haven't done the full RKR yet and I might not - in my position I don't need 100% of utter crap.

So, I've got 4 spurs - 1 DNM cable > WT deck; 1 DNM > DVP75; 1 2.5mm T&E > Densen CDP, DV pre; 1 2.5 T&E > HX1.2. I may uprate the 1.2 cable to 6 or 10mm T&E. I will definately put in an earth stake! I will also try to take a clean phase when the place is rewired which removes compressors and arc welders from the equation.

Instead, I have used Ben Duncan conditioners (1 large one for power, 1 small for pre and CDP, with the TT and phono without - not needed). This gives a vast improvement! These are hooked up with 2.5mm supplied mains cable and 13A MK plugs. Out of the BDs come fuseless Eupens for everything apart from the 1.2 where I'm using WM's excellent cable. My logic tells me that its only what happens post Ben Duncans that really matters and my ears tell me the same. I've also added a big BD to home where it powers everything - even Anya immediately noticed the better TV picture!

So, whatever suits - the mains quality your optimising and the kit.

As for RG's hyperbole, I've had my fingers burned recently - largely on the basis of his 'Product of the Year, its gobsmackingly wonderful' review of the DV Superstereo I bought one. Initially, since it added more weight and scale to the sound I was impressed, as were a couple of others. As soon as I listened to it critically it was chucked into the home system where it performs light cinema and the odd music duties to no great effect. Naturally, others may experience something different but I find it hard to believe RG (or Paul Messenger for that matter) since both used the SS in 2 channel systems which were just too good for it. Get 2 channel right and there's no need to arse about IMO. Part of getting 2 channel right is optimising the electron delivery the best way you can for least money. In my case this might just stretch to the cheapest Nordost but not on RG's say so!

Alex
 
Originally posted by notaclue:
Can we accept that Roy Gregory can be relied upon to accurately, and without recourse to 'purple prose' and gross exaggeration, report the sound of two power cables when, I believe, he cannot be be relied upon to accurately report on the real, physical event of Louise being in grave and present danger of falling off a sofa?
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Yes we can, absolutely.

I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone here took the "sofa" statement at all literally :confused: . Isn't it obvious that it's just a figure of speech for saying "Louise? She was amazed!".

FFS how many times have people here talked about jaws hitting the floor and falling off their chair? It's totally absurd to use that figure of speech as any indication of RG's review accuracy :rolleyes:

If all hifi reviewers wrote their reviews as if they were science papers in a journal they would extremely dull indeed.

Michael.
 
Yes but you are also speaking from your own belief. Your 'proof' is simply reinforcing your preconceived belief. 'Real' proof (well, probably the best you can do in hi-fi) would be for you to reliably identify the two conditions in a blind test. If you believed there was no difference, would you hear one?
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Yes, of course. We are imagining everything. Why haven't I realised this before - just think of the money I could have saved, after all my system sounds shite with all those fancy cable in anyway.

What I always find odd about these discussions is that is it perfectly acceptable for someone to say that box X is better than box Y, but if they say cable X is better than cable Y or that tweak Z improves the sound, then it is a load of bollox and the improvements must be imagined.

Who is the arbiter on what components are acceptable to ascribe sound differences to?
 
Originally posted by Robbo


Who is the arbiter on what components are acceptable to ascribe sound differences to?
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Not bleedin Roy Gregory, thats for sure :)

I personally wasnt knocking ''all tweaky bits'' just ''Roy everything is superb Gregory'' :D
 
I have to admit I'm a bit of an agnostic when it comes to cabling. I read the reviews with interest but a sceptical attitude.

I've messed about with interconnects and speaker cable and my experience suggested that whilst there is a difference to be heard between the freebie skinny interconnects/bell wire and half decent alternatives, you hit the law of diminishing returns fairly early on.

Bellwire to Richer Sounds (£2/M) - noticeable improvement

Richer Sounds (£2/M) a metre stuff to DNM Reson (£8/M) - maybe a difference not quite sure

DNM Reson (£8/M) to fancy schmancy Kimber cable (£40/M - I was given it) - nope I can't hear it.

I can't comment re power cables as I've never messed with 'em. However outside HiFi mags I'd have to say that any sane person would be right in thinking that spending £1750 on a power cable would be completely and utterly barking mad.

I sometimes wonder if reviewers in magazines hear differences that aren't there. After all the current orthodoxy is that cables make a big difference. If a reviewer turned round and said "nope beyond making sure the cables are of a reasonable quality, spending more than £xx is a waste of money - spend it on records or chocolates for the missus" they would firstly get in trouble with the advertising dept of their mag and secondly be guilty of a kind of heresy. They may even have their ability to hear well enough to be a reviewer questioned.

BTW. John Crabbe in this months HFN comes down on the sceptics side of the argument at least regarding speaker cable and he is nothing if not well respected I think.
 
Yes but you are also speaking from your own belief. Your 'proof' is simply reinforcing your preconceived belief. 'Real' proof (well, probably the best you can do in hi-fi) would be for you to reliably identify the two conditions in a blind test. If you believed there was no difference, would you hear one?
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Mmm and i will do that when the spurs are run in - and I can then listen to the 'believed' differances between the spur and my ring main.
Better still - I'll get someone who hasn't even listened to my hi-fi at all to do the testing. I won't have to believe myself at all then!

IMO re cables you do have to be honest with yourself. If you can hear differances that justify the outlay then its your dosh...

Its also about having the courage in your own convictions...
 
Originally posted by bottleneck
Not bleedin Roy Gregory, thats for sure :)

I personally wasnt knocking ''all tweaky bits'' just ''Roy everything is superb Gregory'' :D
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chris to be fair, hi-fi plush's philosiphy is to only print reviews of stuff they actually like - unless it's unavoidable due to time constraints. i'm not a big fan of roy gregory and hold him in the same esteem as barry norman, where, if norman recommended a film i'd stay away but if he hated it i'd be in the queue for tickets the next day. needless to say rg isn't a huge fan of naim gear and any praise he gives is faint and heavy on the damning.
paul messanger is a marvelous reviewer though although i feel he's got a bit of a rough deal from hi-fi plush lately being forced to review the a85 can;t have been pleasant ;) and jimmy hughes is just a dac 64 fanboy who has his speakers the wrong way round.
cheers


julian
 
All true Julian, of course; yet you failed to mention the venerable Hector who's every word should be believed instantly, especially when it concerns my system.
 
hector is just a young whipper-snapping part timer who i suspect has an agenda of his own when it comes to reviewing certain bits of antipodean kit. i suspect the erstwhile editor of hi-fi flush indulges hectors predilictions to keep the others on their toes, but most of the time sends a stream of doggy kit to hectors house.

cheers


julian
 
Originally posted by Joolsburger
I read the review with some interest and then decided it was all cobblers and put a record on instead. Who ever said that blind testing is never carried out on this stuff hence the results should be treated with scepticism was spot on.

........Room treatment and set up, now there's stuff that does work...
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Originally posted by Uncle Ants
I've messed about with interconnects and speaker cable and my experience suggested that whilst there is a difference to be heard between the freebie skinny interconnects/bell wire and half decent alternatives, you hit the law of diminishing returns fairly early on...........

BTW. John Crabbe in this months HFN comes down on the sceptics side of the argument at least regarding speaker cable and he is nothing if not well respected I think.
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Guys what wonderful insight. I would have cried reading comments like yours 2 years ago when I begin to get interested in HIFI, doing research and auditioning as a novice on my own. My experience is so similar to yours but then reading magazines with hyperbole reviews and being pressurised by salesmen, makes me wonder for a while if I am losing my hearing acuity. In the end I just trust my own ears and decide I will only spend on things that I could hear improvement as great as 'night and day'. By the way, that is a figure of speech.
 
I think RG's 9 page jaunt on this subject was just up the sceptics street :D and trying to justify a £1750 power chord in the UK, thats all but for DCS/JMlabs/Spectral squadron (if anyone wants to buy mine pm me :D It's for sale, I did get one out of curiosity, good for sure, but there are others, and I prefer another make ) is more food for 'Bollox Brigade'
I'm not even going to bother, with does it work, is it worth it routine :p I'll just say this, if i put all the cables in my system back to stock O.E, units, I would loose at least 30-40% of my system performance FOR REAL, and yes even some of those stupid money ££$$$££ cables do little more than the 'in flavour belden stuff'. however some work extremely well. Thats it W.m.
 
robbo,
hectors house was indeed a childrens programme. it was recently resurected in the advertising of some bank - virgin one or something i think. with mme tza-tza the cat and another cat thing both of whom were permantently bladdered on martinis for some reason.
cheers


julian
 
class!!!! hectors house!!!!

:) :)


can we talk about parsley the lion and the herbs?

this is making me smile more than kettle leads! (no offense)
 
at the last but one place i worked the computer servers were named after the herbs. i quite liked chorlton and the wheelies too although they were only introduced later on in my childrens tv watching days. what about the moomins, babapappas, willo the wisp and the clangers. ahhh that was real kids programming not crud like the teletubbies, fimbles and boo-bars.
cheers


julian
 

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