Oh dear, oh dear!

Wow Tones

Why on earth do classical music buffs get the "boring" tag eh

Oh and Graham...

You are a frightful snob!

 

Presumably by "boring" you mean "surprisingly knowledgeable and very well read", at least in the case of our Tones

 

It may appear that way - but not guilty sir! I just want a degree of integrity and honesty. I was equally repelled by Madge's massacre of "American Pie". How about a showcase of Soul that features Sam Cooke numbers covered by Westlife or Pinky and Perky, and James Browne singing "Nessun Dorma" (cracking piece of course - but it ain't soul!) - cos that's effectively what we got.

 

Aha, well I got some of it right I guess - also she should really be the Aphrodite of Melos apparently (Venus being the Roman name for the Goddess) - no not well read, just googled it

Back to the subject - sort of. Graham seems to suggest that the Classical music "establishment" are somehow debasing by their popularising, showboating tactics at the awards ceremony - well maybe, but I could point out the that real Brits don't exactly show off non classical in the best light either. If its intended to popularise classical music with the masses I doubt very much it'll work.

My guess is that the more some artists like Nigel Kennedy and Vannessa Mae are marketed like pop stars, the more the easy listening crowd will go for them (you know who I mean) - that's not to say these people will be converts to classical music, just that they will have a couple of other artists in their easy listening collection with some nice tunes written by some guy called Vivaldi, to sit next to their Daniel O'Donnell LPs. Oh and they'll be able to tell their friends they like Classical (and maybe feel a bit superior)

 

Uncle Ants sums up the present position pretty well. And Hippy shows what I suspect is exactly the problem classical music has - a) perception that it's all expensive, dinner jackets and lack (or in later years, a surfeit) of chins and b) unfamiliarity. Sure there are many people who will never 'get' it, just as I will never 'get' the Sex Pistols or Bob Dylan, but a lot will if given the chance. This is why confusing these abortions of 'orchestral easy-listening' with 'classical' annoys me so much. If the rare occasions on which classical gets on mainstream TV are filled with passing off, how are people going to get and form an opinion of the real stuff. There is quite a bit of well-thought-out crossover stuff I do like (particularly at the classical-jazz or classical-world interface), but it's not anything like the real thing.

And as for a). I was at The Valkyrie at ENO on Saturday - £5 for 4 hours of music (and, despite the reviews it was very enjoyable, and at least some of it was in tune ) - in T-shirt and jeans. This is what they're taking to Glastonbury - so I'm very interested to hear what Dom thinks of it. While the plot and music are very dramatic, it probably wouldn't have been my obvious choice as an introduction, as it may need a bit more effort up front to work out (that e.g. La Boheme or Tosca) what it's all about and get into. Maybe a bit pricier and posher at Covent Garden last night (collar, but no tie, and £30 for the seat), but some stunning singing and worth every penny. Can't remember the last time I saw a DJ on a punter!

 

Graham,

Just out of curiosity, are these Classical Brits run by the BPI, the same jokers as run the other Brits? If so, it would explain a lot. They are the men in grey who run the corporate record industry and I suspect they never personally listen to music - they probably pay someone else to do it for them - its all just units of product so far as they are concerned.

BTW, I don't think the Glasto crowd are getting the full 4 hour extravaganza - which is actually a bit of a shame perhaps - I think they getting Act III as a bit of a taster so to speak, an hour or so - but that makes sense really, its how long the slots are. Maybe next year they will get more ambitious - maybe you should write to Farmer Eavis and get him to set up a Classical/Opera stage, you never know it might get popular

 

As it happens, 100% correct - but why type it all out when someone has already typed it out for me?:SLEEP:

I agree with Graham, Uncle, you make some good points - especially the one that those who buy the crossover Vanessa Mae stuff will go very little further than that. It will be treated as a music genre in its own right, rather than a doorway to the great canon of classical music.

We just have to live with the fact that classical will remain a minority habit, the way all great art will remain a minority habit. Like all great art, it will be patronised by a collection of people ranging from the elitist (who put everyone else off) through the merely pretentious (ditto) to the genuine enthusiast. And, as Graham says, some people (I think most), will never "get it". I am not musically trained: Why do I "get it"? I don't know. It grabs me in a way that popular stuff never did. And in the same way, it will continue to grab others as time goes on. Classical demands patience and persistence in a culture that to me seems increasingly to want nothing to do with either. It's well worth the effort, but only the individual can make that choice - and I suspect that, in most cases, all the crossover in the world won't help.

 

Tones,

I wasn't suggesting you weren't well read I'm sure you are. I was saying that I only found out the aphrodite titbit, by googling (actually I think I am reasonably well read, but not unfortunately on ancient hellenistic artworks)

You are right. I think you do have to live with it and not worry too much about it either. It is a minority interest, always has been, always will be and seemingly hasn't suffered too much as a result. You can still buy the music, you can still go to the concerts and operas, they are still being produced - why worry?

Where and when the concept that it should be brought to masses comes from I don't know. Is it driven by some concern that the unwashed masses need some cultural enlightenment, pull them up out of the ooze as it were? Wrong headed and elitist if so. Or is it driven by a concern that it will disappear if the audience isn't broadened? It doesn't seem to be the case to me.

 

As a member of the great unwashed, I'd never thing of it in terms of dragging anyone from the ooze and I agree completely such an attitude is wrong. In my case, I think of it as having found something marvellous - a whole millennium of superb music of amazingly different styles - and I'd like more people to enjoy it too. I get the impression from Graham's posts that he feels the same way. However, leading horses to water and so on. I'd love my daughters to like it too, but no signs of it. "Bach is gagh!" they say (gagh = the live, wormy thing eaten by Star Trek's Klingons). Oh well...

The audience will never broaden because it is already "broad" insofar as the types of people who discover classical are concerned. My father was only a joiner in the Belfast shipyards, but he learned to love classical via the flute bands in which he played. It's just that the number of such people will never be great. Classical will survive, but it will continue to diminish, simply because there's no money in it. I find it heartbreaking to see John Eliot Gardiner's magnificent ensembles in difficult financial straits, while Vanessa Mae gets fat contracts. It ain't justice, but it's modern commercial reality. Now if we'd spend more money on Gardiner and the like and less on bullets to fire at Iraqis, the world would be a much nicer place. But that's another story...

 

Like Morris Dancing.



The gloves were removed when Zep were criticised!!

 

I worry a lot about Morris... however, I don't worry about Plant & Co. as they're beyond all hope

 

I have virtually zero technical knowledge of music. but I am lucky!! I "get" both rock and orchestral which surprises me in many ways, having in my youth been a real heavy metal freak taking great delight in terrorising public transport by playing Ted Nugent (Double Live Gonzo) and the Sex Pistols at full volume :JOEL: . But I suppose one grows up (in my case a bit anyway).

Why do I get it ?? I was hardly a likely candidate although I was always looking for something "more" in my rock travels.

The question may be: Does one listen to music "intellectually" or "emotionally" ?? For me I think its mostly the latter. If you can just let yourself "go" with it no patience is required, a degree of relaxation maybe.

Although I'm interested in knowing the principles of basic composition techniques, beyond that I've never considered a lack of "musical knowledge " to be a problem at all so no technical knowledge of music required here. Subconciously though there must be a kind of backgound intellectual process going on I suppose.

 

I'd go along with that completely. The "background intellectual process" is an interesting point. To me, there's something inherently satisfying about classical, beyond the presence of pretty tunes (which often aren't there) or spectacular solo tours-de force (ditto). Never quite figured out what it is, but it might well be some sort of inherent grasp of structure. After all, we are all endowed with basic musical insights. As Lennie Bernstein put it in one of his famous Norton lectures, kids taunt each other with NA-NA-NANA-NAAAAAAAH! and you'll instinctively know the notes, because they're part of a scale that's fundamental to the whole human race.

With regard to the "patience", I came first to Beethoven (via Hippy's "Pastoral"). For a long time, the "language" of baroque sounded just too dry and flat, but by experimenting and listening, I now find myself more a "baroque" person (and if I bought Naim, I'd be flat baroque - TATAAAAAAAAAAH! TISH! Thank you, thank you, you're too kind...). I'm currently working on Shostakovich and a complete set of Mahler symphonies should be here this week sometime. In these cases, it helps to read a bit about the composers, their world and their intentions. I think this would be absolutely essential with the more discordant stuff that even Led Zep fans find discordant.

 

then how would you explain the plethora of musicians who DONT appreciate classical music?


Its a type of music - nothing more, nothing less. Its be enjoyed or not enjoyed according to taste.

I think its a fallacy to call it an intellectual persuit. You could call Jazz an intelectual persuit equally... and equally nonsensically IMHO.

Music is surely there to give an emotional response of some type. If you get no emotional response.. literally nothing.. but perhaps admire how a piece of music was composed that would not make you a fan of the piece IMHO.

Also ascribing an intellectual response implies that intellect is needed to enjoy classical music. False surely?

 

I don't - as Graham says, you get it or you don't.

Its a type of music - nothing more, nothing less. Its be enjoyed or not enjoyed according to taste.

mostly agreed

I think its a fallacy to call it an intellectual persuit. You could call Jazz an intelectual persuit equally... and equally nonsensically IMHO.

I don't actually recall calling it an intellectual pursuit, but for those in the know (of which I'm not one by the way) it can be. Classical has intellectual depths far beyond any popular music. Can't answer for jazz.

Music is surely there to give an emotional response of some type. If you get no emotional response.. literally nothing.. but perhaps admire how a piece of music was composed that would not make you a fan of the piece IMHO.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "emotional response". Does the satisfaction of coming to grips with an atonal 20th century piece with no melodic lines as we know them count as an "emotional response"? Or are you thinking of something more visceral emotionally? In addition, think of Bach fugues, constructed almost on mathematical principles. They may not be full of pretty tunes, but many (such as our friend RdS) derives enormous pleasure at comprehending and reproducing the structures, which seem to me to be far more complex than anything modern music can provide.

Also ascribing an intellectual response implies that intellect is needed to enjoy classical music. False surely?

I don't think it is needed, but it certainly adds to the experience. Again, just look at the pleasure RdS gets from comprehending the fugal structure of Bach. I have some slight comprehension as to what's going on in these pieces, and to me it adds pleasure to comprehend, if only slightly, the mechanics of the effects you're hearing. This is musicianship of a sublime order and is only really comprehensible to those who have some insight into what's actually happening. I don't see this as snobbish or elitist; in fact, I find it rather humbling to find myself at the foot of the mountains and look up at the peaks that I can never scale without further understanding. However, that's not to say that it can't still be enjoyed on a humbler level. I manage quite well on mine!

 

Tone

You have tried to dirty the name of Led Zeppelin, a most heinous crime!

I challenge you to a duel sir.

Spatula's at dawn, and you sir shall make the first strike, it is sure to be your last!

 

Er, Penance, ol' bud, I think you'll have to join the rapidly-growing queue to your right...

 

gives you time to choose your spatula

 

What if I give you posthumous permission to stomp on and chop up any bits remaining when it gets to your turn? You could really rub it in by doing it to the accompaniment of one of those Led Zep solos that sounds like an entire cats' home on fire.

 

OK
I choose to do it to the track 'Bron Y Aur Stomp'