Outboard DAC

Originally posted by michaelab
Transports do make a difference but not a huge one if your using a decent DAC. Maybe 10-20% of the overall sound.
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10%? That's significant enough IMO... But 20%, that's very signficant IMNSHO! ;)

Well, I must have sh!te DAC then :p because this one time when I took it along to a dealer's to audition a set of quite expensive speakers, I had to get the guy running the demo to change the CD transport that he'd put into the system initially. I felt so strongly that the "house sound" or "house presentation" of this transport was imparting that much of an influence on the final sound that I got him to change it. The sibstituted transport was so much better - little in it from a tonal balance point of view but presentation-wise it was the difference from being really interested in the music and being :zzzz:
 
Originally posted by HenryT
10%? That's significant enough IMO... But 20%, that's very signficant IMNSHO! ;)
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I was really trying to counter the 60% claim earlier in the thread which is in effect saying the transport is more important than the DAC which simply is not true. My 10-20% numbers are just a guess plucked out of thin air, just to say that IMO transports have a much smaller part to play in the sound than some people would suggest.

Henry - of course there's nothing wrong with your DAC but I would think that maybe the dCS DACs are built with the expectation of being used with the dCS transport (or similar) - indeed there's the clock link in an all dCS setup - so it may well be that it doesn't tolerate transport variations as much as, say, a Chord DAC64.

Many DAC64 reviews and also owners I've seen posts from (not here) have mentioned the relative transport independance of the DAC64 compared to others.

Michael.
 
I decided to try and actually determine what the difference was between using my PC as a transport, and using the DVD player as a transport in my system. Although my system is below the heady standards of some systems owned by forum members here, the results slightly surprised me.

The PC uses a Videologic Sonicfury soundcard. The digital output is done through co-ax, through a 3.5mm minijack socket, and the signal is resampled to 48KHz. This means the cable I use although being a standard RCA cable, has adapters at each end, an adapter for BNC at the DAC end and an adapter for 3.5mm jack at the PC end.

The DVD player is a Pioneer DV-350. The sound is not resampled at any time, it sits on Vibrapods for isolation, and has an aftermarket power cord, and a supposedly superior cable made out of genuine 75 ohm cable and plugs.

One would think that the DVD player should be noticably superior.

However, not so. The DVD player does in fact *seem* better, but as to why I cannot put my finger on it. Maybe it seems to have a bit more body, but its difficult to tell, and I say I'd have an impossible time telling them apart blind tested.

I have however confirmed, the DAC does make a *very* noticable improvement to both sources (sound card in particular).

So, if a transport makes such a big difference, then surely it must depend on the DAC used?
 
Sounds like a bargain then Chris! :D

Another tosh 200e owner hey Michael?

I can imagine transports do make a difference, but I find 60% a bit much. Closer to the 10% mentioned by Michael seems MOre realistic.

I'll wait till a decent afordable universal transport is available before walking that path I think. That is, assuming DVD-A or SACD do genuinely kick off. Oh, and would be nice if it did one of the DVD recording MOdes too :D And how about a built in digital tuner?

Paul, I remember seeing a DIY project for a cdp which used a CD-ROM drive. Can't remember how they used it without a pc though. A few MOd's required I guess. I don't know much about pcs,, only opened mine up twice and didn't like the look of it. Could a cd-rom drive be plugged directly into a DAC? Or does it need the soundcard, software etc....

MO
 
:eek: Im gonna agree with WM here :eek:

At Ju's bake off, it was quite remarkable going from Robbo's DPA transport to my micromega T-Drive.

The difference was just... totally very massively significant. It altered the sound completely.

The micromega was describled as 'shut in' and the DPA as open and spacious.

We then put the DAC64 in in place of Robbos matching DPA DAC, and the T-Drive then sounded full bodied and accurate - it was a good match with the DAC64's open and full sound I thought... but with the DPA DAC it sounded shut in.

The unrestricted nature of the Chord DAC seemed to sound good with the PRAT'y sound of the T-Drive.

I'd even go as far as to say that the swap between these two transports gave one of the most significantly audible differences in sound of the day.

Im lucky enough to have already heard the SIGMA II in my system, and know its open textrous sound will match well with the T-Drive.

Cant wait. Only 2 weeks to go :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Chris
 
Originally posted by MO!
Paul, I remember seeing a DIY project for a cdp which used a CD-ROM drive. Can't remember how they used it without a pc though. A few MOd's required I guess. I don't know much about pcs,, only opened mine up twice and didn't like the look of it. Could a cd-rom drive be plugged directly into a DAC? Or does it need the soundcard, software etc....

MO
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I've heard about that too, but I'm not sure how they actually did it, as I didnt look too far into it. However, I'm pretty sure most CD-ROM / DVD-ROM drives have SP/DIF out on them (for how much longer I dont know as digital transfer through the PCI bus is the standard way nowadays). However, all you would need is an appropriate adapter to convert the funny shaped output of the SPDIF on the CD-ROM to a standard connection, and you would need a power source, a PC power supply unit would probably do, and some sort of chassis to put it in.

Apparently it made a decent transport too. Then again, dont some quite expensive transports/decks use CD-ROM transports?
 
Hi

Transports do have a bearing on the sound quality. I have noticed this with both the TAG Dac20 & Chord Dac64. The biggest changes were with the Tag. I use a Micromega Stage Two as a transport & also had a cambridge transport. The Micromega had a smoother, more natural sound but the Cambridge had a more detailed sound. The downside was that it was much harsher to listen to. Didn't gell for long listening sessions. The changes were very easy to hear.

I got a Tag Transport at a good price. This gave a more natural & detailed sound.

The Chord Dac64 as noticed, does respond to different transport. I have found the changes not as dramatic but worth looking into. I have have tried the Audionet Art cd player with the Chord & this had the edge over the Tag Transport. The strengths of the Chord were still on show, the drive, dynamics, detail, but the Audionet bought out slighty more from the music. I have also tried a Pioneer DVD player & a Sony SCAD palyer as a transport to good effect.


SCIDB
 
Originally posted by michaelab
Henry - of course there's nothing wrong with your DAC but I would think that maybe the dCS DACs are built with the expectation of being used with the dCS transport (or similar) - indeed there's the clock link in an all dCS setup - so it may well be that it doesn't tolerate transport variations as much as, say, a Chord DAC64.
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Well, when dCS kit first appeared on the domestic audio market (dressed in domestic clothing for the domestic high-end audio user rather than the studio versions that a few Japanese audiophiles had been using up until that point) in the late 90s, there was no matching CD transport. The dCS Verdi transport is a much more recent addition. There is mention of clock-link facilites (as a retro-fittable upgrade) in the 1999 edition of the manuals I have for my 2nd hand dCS boxes, and specific mention of compatibilty with the TEAC P0 transport. Not that I've ever been able to drag up any useful information about the P0 from the web, or seen any photos/spec sheets about this transport - I suspect this CDT was a Japanese only model?

Anyway, there is a PLL bandwidth setting on the dCS DAC which is meant for tailoring its tolerenace for use with high and low jitter transports. "PLL Fine" is for low jitter transports, and that's the setting I normally use it on, or there's "PLL Wide" which makes it more tolerant for use with higher jitter transports. So, in theory, I guess the "Wide" mode should make it also largely immune to transport differences, assuming all comparisons between different transports were done in the "Wide" mode. Not that I've ever done any comparisons either way. :)

Unlike the DAC64, the dCS doesn't have any kind of sophisticated buffer memory for the re-clocking/de-jittering.
 
Originally posted by michaelab
I was really trying to counter the 60% claim earlier in the thread which is in effect saying the transport is more important than the DAC which simply is not true.
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It is true IME.

The transport ultimately tends to define the level of air, space, soundstaging, ambience and more imprtantly pace (PR&T) that a transport / DAC combo will posses. The DAC (and interconnect) will tend to change the flavour and emphasis (sometimes speed), moderately paced and lush (Meridian), or cold, hard and bright etc. If the information is not there, or has been "distorted" the DAC cannot seem to fully correct this, no matter how "good" or "expensive" it is. Under estimate the importance of a transport at your peril.

A Meridian transport (the 20x's) will remain rich and lush / lazy souding overall (almost) regardless of the DAC employed, which is what I was driving at. You've change the flavour, but not the architeture of the sound. Sure you can make it bright / dull, or use a DAC that will achieve more or less detail, but the fundamental character of the sound will remain.

Cheers
 
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The transport ultimately tends to define the level of air, space, soundstaging, ambience and more imprtantly pace (PR&T) that a transport / DAC combo will posses. The DAC (and interconnect) will tend to change the flavour and emphasis (sometimes speed), moderately paced and lush (Meridian), or cold, hard and bright etc. If the information is not there, or has been "distorted" the DAC cannot seem to fully correct this, no matter how "good" or "expensive" it is. Under estimate the importance of a transport at your peril
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well, from my addmitedly limited experience , i,d go along with this .
my dvd player is about 4 yrs old . its a panasonic A360 ,with the built in digital sound processor .
as a dvd player it is exemplory , none of this artificial colouring , that i,ve seen with other dvd players.
but it is a first generation dvd player (although well thought of in it,s time )and as many will remember , as cdp,s , the first generation dvd players were dire .
when i had to send my cyrus7cdp away to be fixed (a couple of years back )i decided to use the a360 for music .
i managed to leave it in for an hour and after that took it back out .
it really was dire .
:rolleyes:
forward 2 years and after getting the mf a3.24 dac , i decided to try out the dvd player again , but as transport .
the result .
better than before, but still dire:D
so , my feelings .
if any of the guys have got first generation dvd players , hook em up to your dac,s and you,ll hear what i mean .
if your transport is dire , then no matter how good your dac , it,ll still be dire .
timing , what timing ?
 
Originally posted by michaelab
How did I know you were going to bring up my Tosh SD200? :D
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You said "SD200"

220E - the next model up I think Stonking DVD player for the money (£130) though

Michael.
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Don't know about that ;) The 200E cost me about £380! It can hold two discs at once (ideal for watching a DVD then chilling with some tunes :D ). They seemed to have changed the styling to the MOre slimline type that you see with your 220.

toshibasd200e.jpg
 
Ok MO! - I'm not familiar with the SD200 then. The SD220E that I have has just been superceded by the SD330 and, like the 220, it's again picking up all the awards for best budget DVD player :)

Back on topic, I would have to disagree with you guys again :D

The 3 biggest changes I've ever heard in my system were (in order of difference):
1. When I added the DAC20 to my Marantz CD50SE
2. When I swapped the DAC20 for a DAC64 for a day.
3. When I upgraded my £150 Tannoy mx3 speakers to Dynaudio Countour 1.3MkIIs

With both DACs I've had in my system I tried them each with the 4 transports I have available:

Marantz CD50SE (modded)
Tosh SD220E DVD player
Philips DVDR890 DVD recorder
Sony Discman (via TOSlink)

There were differences, significant differences, between the transports. Even allowing for the fact I didn't use the same digi cable each time (I didn't have one long enough and couldn't be bothered to move kit around) I still think there would have been significant differences had I been able to use the same cable.

However, even the difference between the worst transport (Tosh SD220) and the best one (Marantz) was nothing like the night/day differences between the 3 DACs (if you count the Marantz internal DAC as the first one).

So, in my experience DACs are far more important than transports :MILD:

Kermit - to answer your experience specifically, the greatest difference between transports is, like anything else, at the bottom of the scale so clearly comparing a Cyrus CD7 and an old Panny DVD player is going to throw up big differences. I believe though that once you hit the £1000 (RRP) level for a transport there's very little in it after that.

The issue is (in case you hadn't noticed :) ) one of my little bugbears: what irritates me is that the high end manufacturers spend all this R&D effort in trying to make the perfect transport when IMO they'd be far better off trying to make the perfect DAC because it is theoretically possible to make a DAC which is totally transport independent (and digi cable independent aswell btw). If they did then we could all happily use our cheap DVD transports and cheap digi cables...and timpy and WM would go out of business :JOEL:

The arguments (RAM buffer etc) have been done do death :argue: in other threads (not yet on ZG though :torkmada: ) and I can see I'm in a minority so I won't try and labour the point any further :banghead: :guiness:

Michael.
 
Originally posted by michaelab
The issue is (in case you hadn't noticed :) ) one of my little bugbears: what irritates me is that the high end manufacturers spend all this R&D effort in trying to make the perfect transport when IMO they'd be far better off trying to make the perfect DAC because it is theoretically possible to make a DAC which is totally transport independent (and digi cable independent aswell btw). If they did then we could all happily use our cheap DVD transports and cheap digi cables...and timpy and WM would go out of business :JOEL:

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But we're all waiting for the perfect something. :)

In the mean time it's just a case of making the best of what's available.

Cheers
 
Originally posted by timpy
In the mean time it's just a case of making the best of what's available.
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Which is why I'm quite pleased with my latest win on eBay :banana: :guitar:

More information will follow when the deal has been done :D

Michael.
 
Mike, I feel when you have listened to such a wide varity of kit of we have, you may then feel slightly different about it.
And due to the nature of what we do, we have to pay particular attention to this side of the coin.
Having a large number and different price bracket transports to use, we are constantly surprised at the results we get :eek: , and when we 'design' a new item for retail, we have to test it in what would be considered a 'Real world enviroment' for it, that may involve trying up to 10 assorted transports on just 2 dac's and one A/V dac set, the results are quite well....... ear opening.
Just for the record, all the transport that are tested ALL USE the SAME POWER cables and conditioning/ isolation, and are warmed up throughly before testing, we pay particular attention to this, as any 'unfairiness' during testing will corrupt the results and taint any modifing' of the product.
So we have to be as straight as we can possibly make it.
I think you'll find one of the best possible non transport dependent DAC on the market is the DAX Descrete, but it STill requires a Transport clock link to be fitted whatever transport your using.
Maybe our digital wizard JC could shed some light on this, it may stop some forum wrestling techniques :D
 
Originally posted by michaelab
what irritates me is that the high end manufacturers spend all this R&D effort in trying to make the perfect transport when IMO they'd be far better off trying to make the perfect DAC because it is theoretically possible to make a DAC which is totally transport independent (and digi cable independent aswell btw). If they did then we could all happily use our cheap DVD transports and cheap digi cables
.
.
.
and I can see I'm in a minority...
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....but not alone....(although I think the clocklink point is key)
 
Agreed, the clock link is indeed the key, but in particular in the case of the Audio Synthesis DAC/Transport combo is the "N-Code" encoding system that's used in the clock-link signaling. Something very proprietary, but makes you wonder why it hasn't been a standard right from the very start. :rolleyes:
 
I believe that when Sony and Philips first discussed the SPDIF interface specs they were going to have a separate clock link - but then the bean counters got in the way :inferno:

Michael.
 

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