Power Cable Test – Volunteers Needed

[3DSonics]

Hi,

To me it is hypocritical to suggest an endeavor that involves risk while similarly stating the level of risk is personally unacceptable because of a lack of appropriate safety approvals.

Actually, note, I personally use the same mains cables described extensively in my own system, so I do not find the personally unacceptable (I also have some other commercial mains cables around), I merely recommend to the normal HiFi Enthusiast not to use specialist mains cables that they cannot verify are fully safety approved.

I have seen some seriously funky stuff as mains cable which made me doubt the sanity of the designers.

You should recognise Thorsten that people will read your articles and because of your extensive technical knowledge, that I acknowledge, will tend to believe all is well despite the safety warnings. Irresponsible in my opinion.

Note, the SPECIFIC cable described in TNT Audio, WHEN CONSTRUCTED COMPETENTLY AS DETAILED are electrically safe insofar that they have sufficient insulation for the voltages involved, the PEN (Protected Earth Neutralised IIRC) conductor is of more than sufficient crossection to pass the standard "PAT" testing (all my own cables are PAT tested) and the conductors for the life & neutral are of sufficient crossection for the mains cable to be fused with 13A according to UK mains code even if CT/FT-100 is used and the insulating materials are self extiguishing.

I suspect that if someone would want to produce this design commercially they would be able to gain the neccesary certifications for electrical and fire safety without problems, merely at a quite significant expense for the testing labs.

I would not have written about the subject without making sure that safety is well accounted for (I am after all formally qualified as Electrician and Electronic Engineer, including having held the ability to self-certify my own installations back in Germany). So, to describe this as irresponsible is more than strong toback, hence I am taking exception here.

Albeit a side issue to this thread.

That too. Not just factually wrong and with questionable intentions, but off topic as well....

L8er T

 

[mosfet]

In the case of mains cables I am VERY MUCH in favour of avoiding specialist cables as most of them do not have the neccesary safety approvals

Fine.

I personally use the same mains cables described extensively in my own system

That have none of the ââ'¬Å"neccesary safety approvalsââ'¬Â.

(One 'c' and two 's' in necessary by the way but a small oversight that in this case will not lead to harm).

I merely recommend to the normal HiFi Enthusiast not to use specialist mains cables that they cannot verify are fully safety approved.

subsection 2 (part1): apart from specialist mains cables deemed safe by self-appointed hi-fi fora gurus who claim various qualifications of various sorts with additional disclaimers in red just in case.

I would not have written about the subject without making sure that safety is well accounted for

I remain of the opinion such is better accounted for by the BSI. This is all.


As this is now well off topic I'm not pursuing any further and before you accuse me again of ill intentions note it was yourself who raised the issue of safety as it pertains to hi-fi mains cables.

 

[ditton]

just to report here that I have finished the appraisal I was asked to carry out, and will shortly be posting that here and on hifiwigwam.com

 

[penance]

In the case of mains cables I am VERY MUCH in favour of avoiding specialist cables as most of them do not have the neccesary safety approvals, which alone disqualifies from use.

&

Actually, note, I personally use the same mains cables described extensively in my own system, so I do not find the personally unacceptable (I also have some other commercial mains cables around), I merely recommend to the normal HiFi Enthusiast not to use specialist mains cables that they cannot verify are fully safety approved.

That has to rank as some of the best hipocrsy i have ever seen.
Your cables are not approved, in fact I would consider them dangerous due to the inferior cable you suggest is used for the design. You argue that the cable is safe, but you have no proof, and from your lack of response in another thread I assume you have no knowledge of these safety standards.

You have shown that you have little knowledge of correct electrical safety procedure, and apparently no respect for safety.

I guess it is your house, so if you dont mind it burning down that is fine, but it is wrong for you to advise other people online to follow dangerous practice.

PS, self certifying in Germany holds no water in the UK.

 

[Stereo Mic]

Out of interest, are any of these US sockets considered safe by the authorities?

 

[Artikulat]

Statistically it is not a large enough sample. 4 listeners does not constitute a sample by any reasonable means. You really need a much larger sample than that to get a convincing and meaningful result. No matter how mathematically correct, everyone is going to say that the sample was too small, and it's still within the bounds of possible co-incidence. Get a hundred people to see it with a convincing percentage getting the same answer, and you're doing better, a thousand and maybe the world will start to listen!

With all due respect lordsummit, your opinion in this thread seems at odds with your decision to remove the other thread relating to the appraisal of the experiment.

 

[lordsummit]

If people followed the AUP it wouldn't have been necessary would it?

 

[mosfet]

Moving the debate away from the more disagreeable issues (I think everyone who has expressed an opinion on the results, whatever it is, has done so at least once) how are these results to be compared against the subjective reviews one might read in a hi-fi magazine or on the Internet?

Were the views expressed by the listeners in the test - as they relate solely to difference and improvement or not as the case may be - of more or less value than hi-fi magazine or Internet reviews of the same or similar products? Or much the same?

(a civil question, so civil replies only please if you wish to reply)

 

[Kiang]

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/1614.html


test ready to commence

 

[LinearMan]

Once you've all finsished discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, you may like to reflect on this.

The size of the sample, methodolology, etc are all meaningless. You only need a sample of one. You. If you can hear a difference and think that it justifies the expense then buy the cable. If you can't and/or it doesn't, then don't. If you can't then even a 'test' with a sample size of the rest of the world with methodology that took MIT 5 years to perfect is completely irrelevant.

By all means try mains cables. They did make an improvement in my system and I could hear it. I'm a sample of one and the only sample that counts.

 

[tones]

I'm a sample of one and the only sample that counts.

A particularly nice formulation of the only thing that matters in hi-fi. I've tried several highly-rated power cables and have heard no difference, but I accept that others do, and it matters not one iota whether there really was or wasn't a difference. To the person that matters, there was(n't).

 

[zanash]

I don't entirely agree, but the sentiments are about right. Its only the insecure who need to justify a purchase, many to them selves. If you can hear a difference or even think you can and the product is in the range your prepared to spend to achieve that improvment...go for it.

That said its also nice to be with the gang [herd], but not essential for music appreciation !

Don't be affraid of those that have bigger mouths or shout louder, its offen those that make the most noise are just trying to cover there own inadequacies.

As a Dowser ....its very intresting peoples reaction, there's very little middle ground. People are either for and inquisitive or against and scoffing...... This can hardly be described as a herd activity, but like cable trials can yield intresting results. I have used this as a system tuning or fault finding tool....as Rsand can testify
I would not have been able to locate that one resistor in his cd p that seem pivitol to the sound quality...but once changed..... though I'm certain he likes to tell the story.

Anyway...if I dowse, "do mains cables make a difference?" ...I get a resounding yes, now if you ask the question "is this for the better?" the results are less clear and with a few well chosen questions it appears unsuprisingly that mains cables are highly dependant on the system, context and then location dependant. Context an odd word but there you go , this includes the person listening and others present. Not wanting to get to far down the mystical, or blind with "new age" jargon the results are often skewed by the listeners and or the demonstrators. i'll not try to say its auras or guadian angels as some of that is too off the wall for even me ! But consider this each person is puting out about the same energy as a 60 watt light bulb.....you can't tell me that this just disappears with no effect on the environs ....entropy is a strange thing.

 

[Kiang]

Why do we post on forums ?

It is because we like discussion,we like discussing hi-fi , their merits or otherwise.
We like controversy and debate.
Occassionally we genuinely seek opinions and sometimes we take heed of them.

The key factor at the end of the day is a healthy light hearted debate - that is what this test is intended to stimulate.
Both this and the previous test has done exactly that and there are many who enjoyed it.

The journey with hi-fi and its ilk is long and enjoyable. You sometimes learn things and indeed sometimes you change preexisting concepts but above all for most of us it is the enjoyment of music that is the hobby.

If you look at the findings of a test like this as dictatorial or critical I'm afraid there is a danger you could find debate in its true form itself as non-existent.
Do take the test in a lighthearted way and join in the subsequent discussion -which I'm sure will be entertaining if nothing else.