power cables

Yawn :SLEEP: No one would do the test even if it was for identifying "nominally competent" CD players or amps in a DBT. In many cases the differences are just as small (but nevertheless important) as with cables but why is it that people only question if there really are differences between cables?

Double blind tests are a particularly bad way of testing hifi gear as there isn't yet a reliable method of measuring the results. Human ears are susceptible to all kinds of influences. Changes that a cable (or even an amp) make are often only appreciated after weeks or even months of using them.

Michael.

 

because the theoretical ''experts'' have deemed that differences between components are acceptable whereas differences between cables or the effectiveness of tweaks can only be psychoacoustics

 

I've had a lot of success with Eupen and WM cable and Ben Duncan conditioners - all sceptics who've visited have been convinced easily as to their merits.

 

The burden of proof is on those making the unlikely claims, not those who disbelieve them. Any manufacturer who makes "scientific" claims for a product should offer proof. The fact they don't offer such proof is suggestive, IMO.

And these experts may be right, of course. They at least have the benefit of coherent theory, something the believers don't have.

I won't repeat my view at length, because this is a discussion that keeps coming around, but in brief: IME these things can make a marginal difference, but it's either unimportant musically or so subtle as to be a waste of time, or, in some cases, non-existent. Any claims that cables and power leads "make or break a system" or make a "jaw-dropping" difference, or whatever, I take with a huge pinch of salt, having heard a fair number of cable experiments.

YMMV, etc.

-- Ian

 

I agree with you on this.

My view is that getting the cabling right in a system can tip the balance and turn a good sounding system into a superb sounding system. Thats what we are all after, isnt it?

The same goes for supports btw.

 

But one thing I would say is that I, with just basic soldering skills, could buy some cable and plugs from Maplin and make a cable that might (if we believe the sceptics) be equal to any other cable on the market.

I would imagine a similar attempt by me at an amp or CD player would be extremely poor. They wouldn't work for starters. But, yes, it would appear that some people do say that some amps and CD players sound the same though I doubt anybody would say they all do as they are much more complex and there is much more scope for tailoring the sound etc.

As for mains cables, I suppose the cynics would say just buy a good, shielded cable rather than some fancy, expensive make.

I don't see why people seem not want to hear all this about cables. It could save you money buying cables and stop you swapping cables. Neither of which is particularly fun. I was pleased to hear it.

And the good news is that EVERYBODY agrees that speakers and room acoustics have a huge influence on sound. So I guess that the cynics are just trying to make sure you spend your money wisely on things that will make a big difference.

 

Yes, they might. But unfortunately they wont sound as good as some of the better cables around so it is a bit of a waste of time.

But if your speakers are fed a crap signal, it doesnt really matter how good they are. You have got to get the rest of the system performing optimally as well. Garbage in/garbage out and all that. just buying an expensive pair of speakers and lobbing them on the end of a mediocre/poorly set up system is a waste of money.

 

Im not sure thats the case to be honest.

I have heard signal cables that I cant distinguish between, speaker cables, cd players, and a few amps aswell that all sounded identical to each other.

The difference for me has been - that when I CAN hear a sonic difference between, say, 2 amplifiers - I always have a preference and one always sounds better than the other to me.

With power cables (and signal cables) its very very rarely the case that when I CAN hear a difference that I can call it more than a subtle difference as opposed to an improvement. This goes all the way from a yello RS cable to a Shunyata Hydra.

Ive heard Tones, Ian and my other fellow (non/partial-believers?) come out with similar sentiments..

On a completely different note - I wonder if our friend Sid and Coke who works on airyplanes can get us all some of this harrier power cable cheap? how about it sid? hehe

Chris

 

What he said.

I wish I'd put it that well, that's exactly my feeling about cables.

-- Ian

 

So what then is the value of people telling us that brand X is "jaw droppingly superior" to brand y after listening in an uncontrolled environment?
The answer is that if DBT is unreliable for checking the difference between cables, then anything less is functionally useless.
DBT is certainly less unreliable than any other method anyone has yet to come up with.
Arguments to the contrary are somewhat solipsistic IMO.
The burden of proof, as Ian says, lies with the believers...

 

The problem here Ian is if you show a HiFi buff a set of measurement, he will typically rock onto the balls of his feet, adjust his anorak, and say " Ah but what does it SOUND like" So why bother with graphs when the target market doesn't care about them. You can't have it both ways!

When looking at amps, do you care about whether tyhe lack of global feedback impacts on the sound quality, or whether the claims of high speed transistors are born out in the lab? Chord claim the WATT filter is superior to all others and that the rest are flawed. Has anyone put this to the test? Does it affect your interest or do you just listen to the product?

Of course, with anything in a box, you listen and judge, and take nary a glimpse at any technological claims. If I put a Shunyata in a box and called it a mains conditioner many more would listen and extol it's virtues. But sadly because it's a cable, predjustice intervenes.

What I find a shame is that we use different criteria for evaluating components and cables, this I find somewhat sad.

 

:SLEEP: :SLEEP: :SLEEP: oh the 5th day of christmas, My snake oil salesman gave to me, 5 stock power chords, 4 pieces of bell wire, 3 shark plugs, 2 richers specials and a Tones in glass house.
sorry but there is no burden of proof on anything, you either like what it does or not. T.

 

Disingenuous, I think. What it sounds like, is, of course, the only thing that matters, but if a company makes claims that extend beyond "it sounds better" into the realms of science, it should prove those claims, and if it can't, it shouldn't make the claims in the first place. This doesn't seem too much to ask for.

-- Ian

 

Again Ian it isn't.

If any company tells you their kit sounds better without backing it up in some way (silver solder, better valves,time aligned filter, choke regulation....), what would your response be?

 

That's different. Suggestions that, for example, an amp designer prefers to use silver solder are one thing, they're entirely subjective and I have no problem with that. There is no "right" in this, it's purely a matter of preference. Claiming that a power cable reduces EMI/RFI, and that this reduction is responsible for an improvement, is a testable, non-subjective claim, and should be proved by those making it. If they can't prove the claim they shouldn't make it. These companies' marketing materials are big on the scientific sounding claims, but not so big on the evidence to back them up. How strange.

I have no beef with cable companies who simply say, "here's our product, try it, see if you like it". There aren't many of those, however.

-- Ian

 

I see your point Ian but not many companies have the balls to say: "Our mains cable works really well. We've no idea why, but try it and you'll see". So, they make up some bollox that sounds reasonable. I don't think they are doing it maliciously though.

Eupen are one of the few cable companies who's "science" I believe since they aren't in the business of making cables for audiphiles:

See: http://www.eupen.com/cable/emc/emc00.html
and: http://www.eupen.com/cable/emc/emc08.html

They make cables for all sorts of industrial uses such as airports, communications, saftey systems - even nuclear power stations! In those industries you don't bullshit about what your products do or don't do because it's all tested.

They publish a graph about their GNLM cable and it's RFI attenuation characteristics:



Audusa just happens to have taken Eupen GNLM cable and sells it as audiophile mains cable. It happens to work, very well

Michael.

 

http://www.raychem.com/US/datasheets/1654025_Sec_9/9-66_9-70.pdf

I don't know if this is of any use Ian but I suspect not.

How's that different? My example included the WATT filter and choke regulated supply, both of which claim to resolve an issue with alternatives. But where's the proof?

If a guy is charging me more for using silver solder and gold plated contacts, because they sound better, he must be inferring that they are different in some way and that the extra is worth paying for. Where's the data? But as you rightly point out, you don't need it, you use your ears.

Cheers

Michael

 

In the defence of amplifier manufacturers ...

you do (typically) expect the following information in your manual

input sensitivity
power output (in watts) per channel, and total
distortion figures

there are more, but my mind has gone blank.


It would be nice if power cable manufacturers could establish a common ground, and measure

RFI reduction
EMI reduction

If these are considered to be pertinent.


Id agree that it is bizarre that measured figures are supplied with amplifiers, CD players, speakers etc.. but not power cables.

I think they would be taken more seriously if they did so.

I certainly dont think the onus is on me as a potential customer to measure them.

Chris

 

Yes, now that does look OK. Whether it is audible with the average hi-fi may be debatable but you aren't paying hundreds/thousands of pounds for 'magic' with something like that.

I don't think any 'sceptic' would object to good, solid engineering at fair prices. But will nuclear power stations be upgrading to £1000+ cables from Nordost anytime soon? Probably not

 

I bet you that it is especially on CD players.