SACD vs LP

[ilockyer]

Originally posted by sideshowbob

It's not about sound, anyway. As Joel says, if you want a music collection that's a bit wider than the last 20 years, a TT and a stash of second hand vinyl is the way to go. I have loads of wonderful records that aren't available on CD, and often never will be.

Anybody who's ever thought, "Hmm, I'm a bit bored with my music collection, I want to try something new" should buy a cheap secondhand Rega and get to a secondhand record shop or fair. Can't go wrong.

-- Ian

Exactly, there's so much out there to be bought, and often at rock bottom prices too. Where's the logic in paying out £14 for an album on CD when you can get it for a couple of quid? I've picked up about 150 albums in the last year and it's probably not cost me more than £200... that lot on CD would've been a load more especially since some titles are deleted on CD and go for a lot of £.

Originally posted by joel

I'm not sure about the romantic bit TBH, although I guess there is a nostlagic element for many of us. But to be honest, it's the software and the fact that if you can stop worrying about the hifi and start listening to the music, it sounds so damn good.

Exactly right! The hifi is there to make the music sound good, not the other way round. I think sometimes maybe we're all guilty of forgetting this. So what if there's the odd pop or crackle, if you really get into what you're listening to you won't notice it anyway.

 

[julian2002]

Exactly, there's so much out there to be bought, and often at rock bottom prices too. Where's the logic in paying out £14 for an album on CD when you can get it for a couple of quid? I've picked up about 150 albums in the last year and it's probably not cost me more than £200... that lot on CD would've been a load more especially since some titles are deleted on CD and go for a lot of £.

you can walk into most crack converters, some charity shops and a lot of 2nd hand places in large cities and find very cheap cd's - of the 1 and 2 quid variety. there are also many places on the we, just a google away from you that can feed a cheap cd habit, a lot of independant dance lables sell direct for 1/2 price or less. my last order from chaos unlimited came to about 30 quid for 6 or so cd's thats a fiver eac (brand new!) fopp is another source for cheap cds (although for the lucky few only who live near to one). even most mainstream places like virgin, mvc, hmv, etc. usually have a sale of some sort on. so i wouldn;t put cost of vinyl software that highly over cd's.

The hifi is there to make the music sound good, not the other way round. I think sometimes maybe we're all guilty of forgetting this. So what if there's the odd pop or crackle, if you really get into what you're listening to you won't notice it anyway.

whilst i'd agree that the music is the whole point of this exercise and that some amongst us may seem to loose sight of that (although who are we to point fingers, if they are enjoying the musical reproduction from their kit then more power to them no matter if they have one diana krall cd and 50k's woth of krell or 5000 obscure jazz lp's and a dansette)
i would disagree that pop and crackle are not important. one of the most annoying things i found at the bake off's i;'ve been to where vinyl has featured is that some of the albums that have been played have been a bit worse for wear. surface noise has intruded and i've found myself having to make an effort to listen to the music rather than the problems.
i find music to be an associative experience in that hearing a piece of music will remind me of a time or experience in my life, usually the first time i heard that bit of music, in a club, with a girl, driving, on holiday, etc. if that experience was fun or important then i'm more likely to like it. if however the experience was annoying then i find myself pre-biased against it afterwards even if i would have really liked it under other circumstances.

cheers


julian

 

[robert_cyrus]

interesting article in the latest hi>fi+ magazine reviewing remastered cd vs sacd vs latest 200g vinyl versions of peter gabriel's solo opus. starts with saying the remastered cd was the "inferior" medium of the 3, sacd was better, and lp was the best (for the most part). gives specific details of tracks e.g. biko on pg3 and descriptions of how each medium faired with the reproduction.
wadia 861 "doing" the cd, sacd not sure but was playing stereo not surround material, and lp was a clearaudio master iirc.

 

[bottleneck]

WM's spot on about recording quality at different times, IMO..

I mean - pre '86 recordings on CD for example ... I havent found an example yet where the LP version didnt sound comparatively better than the CD version..

That changes with modern remasters of early recordings, but they are scarce and expensive IME.

After that CD recordings seem to have got shedloads better IMO...these days I still buy the LP version because I prefer the presentation of LP ... but many modern CDs have high quality recordings of course..

Not 100% agreeing with the cheap software arguement on LP.... I often pay up to £19.99 to get an album on LP instead of £8.99 on CD.... the cheap bit IME is only with second hand bargains.. new vinyl is expensive (but lurvleee! )

But SACD (should I say betamax?) vs LP? hehehehehehe do me favour!

 

[joel]

Originally posted by bottleneck

Not 100% agreeing with the cheap software arguement on LP.... I often pay up to £19.99 to get an album on LP instead of £8.99 on CD.... the cheap bit IME is only with second hand bargains.. new vinyl is expensive (but lurvleee! )

Wait for six months and the price will have dropped by 50% or more - at least that's my experience at recofan - our very own Oriental Fopp.
Picked up Joyce's Gafeira Moderne for next to nowt the other day - NOS at about 6squid.

 

[joel]

Originally posted by julian2002

i would disagree that pop and crackle are not important. one of the most annoying things i found at the bake off's i;'ve been to where vinyl has featured is that some of the albums that have been played have been a bit worse for wear. surface noise has intruded and i've found myself having to make an effort to listen to the music rather than the problems.

Strokes for folks - but what you have said is that vinyl is not worth it and will cost over 1000 pounds to do reasonably.
Whether vinyl is worth it depends, I guess, on your taste in music and in presentation. Fair enough.
The 1K thing is nonsense, frankly.
If the occasional snap crackle and pop bothers you, that's fine. Though, if I were to be churlish I would say that you're listening to the hifi rather than grooving to the music...
I listen for the music these days and not to diagnose my system (although problems/weaknesses can be heard) - I'm frequently amazed at how great things sound and how well musicians play (the inverse, too). The system ain't perfect, far from it - but it is more than capable of playing the music I listen to whether on vinyl or CD.
And as there is nothing that I want that is available only on SACD, I don't need SACD.

 

[julian2002]

actually joel i said vinyl wasn;t worth it if you had a substantial investment in music on cd an in the hardware necessary to play it and there was music that you wanted to listen to available for cd.

the 1k thing is a conservative estimate to get decent replay for lp.

roughly:
300 quid for deck and arm
300 quid for a phono stage
100 - 200 quid for a decent cart
100 quid for a cable
100 quid for some anciliaries (record cleaner, cart cleaner, timing strobe, dealer set up etc. some are i would guess essential if you are buying charity shop vinyl too)

this i suspect would stand a chance of competing with a 1 - 2k cd player.

perhaps you can elucidate as to how crackle and pop are 'hi-fi' or 'hardware' and not music... they are sounds produced by the loudspeakers in fact on certain lemon jelly tracks they ARE the music (a fact which narked me at the start but when they actually worked it into the beat made me smile).

I listen for the music these days and not to diagnose my system

a dangerous thing to say as the logical conclusion is sitting listening to your collection using a bush turntable and a philips mini system. however as you say music is the prime objective of our hobby. therefore we buy better equipment than joe blow in the street to give us better fidelity or musicality (take your pick, whatever). surely anything that adds distortion to the music is to be avoided. surface noise unfortunately is a very audiable form of distortion that is completely unrelated to the music going on underneath therefore it is of the most intrusive kind.
cheers


julian

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by bottleneck
I mean - pre '86 recordings on CD for example ... I havent found an example yet where the LP version didnt sound comparatively better than the CD version..

AHA! But what if an ORIGINAL 1983 CD issue (in this case Bowie's Hunky Dory) pees all over the more modern remaster? OK so there's a bit of drop out at the start of Changes, but the sound is FAR FAR FAR superior to the abominable EMI remaster - using that shoddy "No noise" system - more like "No life" by the time the emaciated, flat sound comes out the other end....

The RCA green lable vinyl I have pees over the CD full stop - even on my cheapo Rega turntable. The timpani at the end of Life on Mars? sounds like a timpani, not someone slapping a dead trout over a tin can (2000 EMI remaster). Even the 1983 CD issue sounds more like a timpany than that...

As for vinyl/SACD - well, when my Pioneer 656A turns up from Techtronics (should be some time early next week), and after I've moved and got round to wiring the Pioneer in, I'll try the test. So far I intend to get Hot Rocks by Rolling Stones - though this won't be fair 'cos my vinyl (greek pressing) sounds like a CD - flat and lifeless... Shame LA Woman isn't out on SACD as well as DVD-A - maybe I can do LA Woman on LP/DVD-A, and Thriller on LP/SACD (I don't own this on CD!).

 

[joel]

Dom,
Although not a David Bowie fan, I am fairly sure that Hunky Dory was released well before 1983 (which was the year of China Girl I seem to remember).
Julian,
We are not talking the same language to be honest. There is nothing in the least dangerous in being more interested in music than in the replay system IMO. I'm quite happy (wrong word - resigned is better) to spend money on getting the hifi reasonably right. But the audio is a tool for playing back music, not an end or hobby in itself.
I am not that worried if my TT pisses over a 1200quid CDP or not. I want a TT that plays music and plays it well. ON PFM at the momennt there is someone looking at buying a sh Rega Planar 2 + Audio Technica cart - cost of that lot - around 100 quid (plus maybe a sh wall shelf and a few rawl bolts). Job done.

 

[HenryT]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
As for vinyl/SACD - well, when my Pioneer 656A turns up from Techtronics (should be some time early next week), and after I've moved and got round to wiring the Pioneer in, I'll try the test.

Come on Dom, we all know you're just a collector of (soon-to-be ) defunct music carrier formats! The Pioneer is just another excuse to own such a piece kit.

To be serious just for a sec, I suspect you'll be laughing at SACD playback compared to your Rega for the things you value from vinyl or quality analogue source playback. IME, SACD just about matches mid-level (but not the best high-end) vinyl in the areas that vinyl enthusiasts rate as important and you'll be wondering what fuss the is all about.

SACD usually sounds best when produced from DSD technology *throughout* the recording chain. Despite the decentors banging on about ultra-sonic noise, IMO, it's not the above 20Khz garbage that's of relevance, but the improved accurarcy and linearity of things below 20Khz that count compared to red book CD. This is generally the key factor behind both SACD and DVD-A, not that you can use it to communicate with bats. :JOEL:

On the other hand, the 656A is supposed to be very responsive to clock and PSU mods, bringing it in-line with a good £2k CDP for red-book CD playback. So might be a viable route to saving some shelf space and a worthwhile successor to the Planet CDP when funds allow.

 

[julian2002]

joel,
somehow i doubt a 2nd hand rega and AT cart will play music WELL in fact without certain other bits like some i/c's and a phono stage (unless you've got one built in to your amp) it aint gonna play anything and even then if you want to trust your collection to a 2nd hand cart and arm then you're a braver man than i gunga din.

as for your other point well you seem to say that the equipment is totally unimportant whilst i'm saying no, it is important up to a certain level whereafter it's silly to spend more.
cheers


julian

 

[joel]

Originally posted by julian2002
joel,
somehow i doubt a 2nd hand rega and AT cart will play music WELL in fact without certain other bits like some i/c's and a phono stage (unless you've got one built in to your amp) it aint gonna play anything and even then if you want to trust your collection to a 2nd hand cart and arm then you're a braver man than i gunga din.

Hi Julian,
Plenty of people use sh arms and carts - why not (my cart was s/h btw) - there is a micro industry that revolves around s/h arms and carts, and there are plenty of people who will testify to the Rega's ability to play music.
The AT cart is, I believe, a reasonable output MM, so not particularly difficult to partner. I use stock Rega and Canare cable for my phono connection requirements- and sure enough sound comes out of the speakers.
The Regas' are very easy to set up, and damage is very unlikely.

as for your other point well you seem to say that the equipment is totally unimportant whilst i'm saying no, it is important up to a certain level whereafter it's silly to spend more.
cheers

Not unimportant, but audio is a tool. It's good to have good tools.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by joel
Dom,
Although not a David Bowie fan, I am fairly sure that Hunky Dory was released well before 1983 (which was the year of China Girl I seem to remember).

Hunky Dory came out in 1971 - but CD wasn't in the States/UK until 1983, which is where my copy on CD dates from; it's so old, the CD inset only has one "Compact disc digital audio" logo (top right) and the actual disc has no matrix code on the inner "hole" either - and it was pressed in Japan...

Isn't the 1983 Bowie album called "Tonight" - that's the one with "Let's dance" and "China girl" on isn't it? I only own Hunky Dory and ChangesOne and ChangesTwo - keep meaning to buy more though...

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by HenryT
Come on Dom, we all know you're just a collector of (soon-to-be ) defunct music carrier formats! The Pioneer is just another excuse to own such a piece kit.

OK I admit it - I'm a format geek Actually the only Pioneer Techtronics did that had twin SCART and Murky/Crapri/Suckrovision disabled was the 656A - so I kind of had no choice in the matter - what a bummer...

I'm not expecting miracles from SACD but if I get Hot Rocks, the CD layer will play in all my other devices so technically it's not a waste of $£$£$£$

Originally posted by HenryT
On the other hand, the 656A is supposed to be very responsive to clock and PSU mods, bringing it in-line with a good £2k CDP for red-book CD playback. So might be a viable route to saving some shelf space and a worthwhile successor to the Planet CDP when funds allow.

Re-he-he-he-h-eeeealy? Where did you hear that - enquiring minds need to know dude as this could have some merit... So maybe I could get a Naim CDX-style sound that can also do pictures - I bet Tone would know about this

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by domfjbrown


So maybe I could get a Naim CDX-style sound that can also do pictures - I bet Tone would know about this

Dom, the 656, can be 'lifted a touch' with good results, CDX stylee'' humm' not quite so sure on that bit, but can certainly give a 'Life enhancing' shot in the arm, to may well veer towards the more earther tendanices you like. Tone

 

[domfjbrown]

Tone - what kind of mods can this take and how much would it cost? I'd do nothing for the first year (wait for the guarantee to run out!) but would be curious after that...

Would you get earth loops from using digi-out to AV and analog out to the hifi though?

 

[joel]

Originally posted by domfjbrown
Isn't the 1983 Bowie album called "Tonight" - that's the one with "Let's dance" and "China girl" on isn't it? I only own Hunky Dory and ChangesOne and ChangesTwo - keep meaning to buy more though...

Dom,
To be honest, I don't remember. I do remember the video and Stevie Ray Vaughn's geetar solo - unexpectedly tasteful it was, too for an early 80s pop song. I think SRV wore a panama hat in the vid, which is considerably more than DB's bird

Joel

 

[julian2002]

sacd-video anyone...
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=19363192

joel,
i've heard a number of respected audio guys say that if you use a 2nd hand (not refurbished) cart then you're in danger of destroying your collection also 2nd hand arms can be folly as any sort of bearing stick can damage records. anyway this is hair splitting. if you want to endanger a few thousand pounds of records for the sake of a couple of hundred quid on a new arm and cart then furry muff. i'll agree that reply is possible sub a grand however safe quality replay i'd still debate.

cheers


julian

 

[domfjbrown]

ah - but checking for damage on arms is p1ss easy - second hand carts though - nah, that's a no-no imho unless you know the punter you're getting the cart off of - as then you'll know if the cart's been looked after or not, and how much use it's had...

 

[sideshowbob]

Julian, you're losing it man.

Second hand carts are fine provided they don't have many hours on them, and are easily bought from a dealer if you're worried about getting one properly that's vouched for.

As for arms, it's easy to tell if the bearings are knackered or not. Again, there are plently of dealers who will sell you a secondhand arm at a decent price with guarantee. Or just do what I did, and buy a unipivot - no bearing, no problem.

Secondhand CDPs are much more of a minefield - who knows if a transport is on its last legs?

-- Ian