Scandal in audio Asylum...

Isnt it completely different to...

put the same engine in two different cars... and call them different...

or put the same tube in 2 tv's and call them different...

and..

Use the same CABLE in a CABLE and put a different cover over the top (and heatshrunk ends no doubt so you cant see?)??

Surely one is a component in a system, and the other is the finished article (less a couple of plugs) ?

 

My mate just got his solicitor's bill in for his divorce. Amid the sobbing I could just make out £7500, ...£7500,... £7500......

Perhaps it's audiophile solicitors that buy the mega bucks cables ?

 

No, because the wags will still claim that Nordost is the best cable in the world because it's unquestionably not someone elses product.

Markups are probably still the same though

 

Having read the full reply by JPS, I really don't know what to feel. I'd probably paraphrase what I read as:
'I came up with some good ideas, worked my butt off, then realised the first principle of business and started using other peoples products and ideas to cash in on consumers, raised my markups and lowered the quality'

I think he's done a bit of a Ratner, and I wouldn't be at all surpised if the company folded. In a personal sense, it would be a shame because Hi-Fi is precarious enough as it is, but if it allows people to realise what a sham many of the 'high-end' cables available are, it's a small price to pay.
Simon

 

Simon

You must have read a different reply from me then JPS states that the wire is oem (Supposedly to his design, like speaker manufactures who use scanspeak etc) but that the magic and snake oil takes place in the plugs, and even says cut the plugs off at either end and replace with wattgates etc and then you will have same bit of wire but not the same power cable. I can confirm this I opened up the plug in my Digital ac and there is indeed some electronic trickery going on iinside.

So many people seem to want to pour scorn on people who beleive cables make a difference and so waht if the difference is real or perceived. If you don't hear any difference then don't buy it, but don't try and tell me that I cannot hear a difference of course i can otherwise i wouldn't have bought it and I was prepared to pay the asking price whatever the cost of the components.

Cables can be likened to religion IMHO if YOU beleive in a God then he IS real, to YOU, regardless of what others say. Yet no one has proved or disproved that a god actually exists. Some would argue that if we never had religion and all of a sudden someone jumped up and introduced it then they would be laughed at and ridiculed.

Lets end this cable nonsense once and for all if YOU CAN hear a DIFFERENCE and can afford it and are willing to pay the price that difference makes then it's YOUR money, what we don't need is some (probably Auditory Digitals)who come on the boards and pour scorn and ridicule at them who have chosen the above solution to THEIR audio nirvana because they can't or won't hear a difference based on scientific fact or not.

I have chosen each of my components, cables included, after listening to them and it is my money that is paying for what i am hearing and I for one am delighted at the pleasure and emotions i feel when relaxing with some great recordings
Paul

 

This thread is not about that, I started it and I believe cables do sound different...

 

Lowrider I realise the post is not about that, however the very reason the AA post was originally started is that so many people want to beleive what they read, for example what compelled RPL(AA poster who stared all this) to deface a cable he paid nearly £400 dollars for? In this hobby (and others) some people are looking to find approval from others as to their choice of "in" component or brand etc, I started with this hobby as from an early age I found I was emotionally moved (didin't realise it at this early age) by music, as I got older i realised that HIFI enabled me to get more from the music.

I have since gone down my own path and bought audio equipment that I liked, not what everyone else liked (after all it was me that was paying for it), I for one don't really care what anyone else thinks of my choices as they are being listened to by my ears, and I am secure enough in my own descision making process to be happy with what I have, but there are some who post on this board and one or two who post on HFC who are quite vehement and scathing in their attacks on those of us who choose something that they think is nonsense, If they think that then don't buy it but a lot of the people on these forums are looking for advice and I have tried to give them my tuppence worth Not to tell them what they should and should not be buying give people both sides of the argument and guide them into choosing something armed with all the facts.

Sorry for hijacking your post but my comments were answering Simons (and bottlenecks) as I to read the JPS reply and thought it was a fair and honest account of how he runs his business, If you were to ask other Audio manufactures the same question you would get a similar reply, some speaker manufacturers use scanspaeak or seas drivers but it's the way they are put together that makes them different, the "Pizza Post" was about right eg take tomaoes, onions garlic and some Mince and by changing ratio of each and adding a few different herbs then you can create meals that taste completely different from each other, JPS Labs digital ac may have an oem wire but it also contains some electronics to filter RFI etc which the standard Eupen wire doesn't, JPS admits that the sum of the parts does not equal the mark up in price however if you consider the time and effort he went into to develop this cable, then that is what you are paying for, if you think this is too expensive then don't buy it, i am not saying that a competent DIYer cannot come up with something similar and if they can the good luck to them, the question we should be asking of RPL is what compelled him to purchase the cable in the first place, did he compare it to the standard Eupen or did he fall into the trap of "its expensive so it must be good" and then found out he couldn't tell the difference between his new cable and something else so opened it up and felt ripped off, I liked the differences JPS cable made to my system and coudn't care less what is under the sheathing, if they can make bellwire sound great and you can't it only seems fair to pay the price they are asking, we are all different with a huge number of different things affecting how our systems sound (room etc), but some people cannot live with these differences between us all and want everyone to come round to their way of thinking, to make them feel more secure, I love music and find all these differences part of the fun of hifi and if i agree or disagree then so what, there is no right or wrong way to do something.

Paul

 

Thing is, how much will the components in the plugs cost? I doubt they cost $300.

 

Some very long posts there analogue kid!

My question was an open one really..

'In the case of a power cable - is the cable ITSELF a component in a finished product - like a speaker in a loudspeaker, an engine in a car, a tube in a TV... OR is it so near to being the finished article that it is no longer a part, but for all intense purposes the finished product?''

I understand your response, and had not realised that their is tweakery inside the plugs.

Despite this lack of understanding, I still fall heavily on the SECOND side of the arguement. The cable to all intense purposes IS the finished article - in my opinion of course.

I would further point to speaker manufacturers - Living Voice - open and honest about the use of Scanspeak tweeters, Vifa woofers etc. They are equally open about the design of some of their speakers being loosely based on a Dali design.

Taking motorcars - if a car uses a 'Rover K' series engine as an example, that is made open and common knowledge.

I think both of these transparent models are a world apart from what I've read so far about this case. In this instance, can you see any correspondence, magazine interview or advert which explains the use of Eupen cable ? If not, why not?.. I would imagine that the answer is that they havent revealed this, because they KNOW that people would feel the same as me!

NB
This case has no relation to .. 'power cables work / power cables dont work' .

PS Shushhh dont tell, but I opened up an Omiga Audio Liberator, and its got Nordost Flatline inside!

 

Shite, were busted
Hum, Chris very
We will state, all our own cables are hand built, from our own materials (unqiue), they don't have 'Brand 'x' inside and you cannot obtain them from anyone but Omiga Audio.
NB we do manufacture cables for other people. Wm

 

RAOTFLMAO :notworthy

 

AK - I'm highly sceptical about the differences between the components in the plug compared to those in a 'standard' Eupen cable. Eupen must put them in, because JPS don't have the moulding machinery to do it. I can't see that they differ that much.

What really gets my goat about the whole thing is it shows just how much of Hi-Fi is expensive packaging. The sleeving on the JPS looked really cool, with it's fat black techflex covering. However, the cable inside was a skinny Eupen jobbie. It's kind of like opening up your expensive CDP to find the guts of a Sony portable in there (Naim CD5i owners, I have your sympathy )

As regards the differences in how we read the JPS statement, the things I picked up on were where he admitted he didn't know much about volume manufacturing and audio markups, but that he'd now embraced these. To me, this is an implicit recognition that his quality has declined, and his price has gone up. To do that on it's own is just about acceptable, but to reduce your role in the process to some unknown element of design, then wrapping up Eupen leads in really fancy outer sheathing is totally dishonest. It's not often the case in audio, but Hi-Fi should be 'what it is', not made out to be something bigger and better, least of all when it results in ludicrous markups. That's why one of the better things Hi-Fi+ do is to include open-case photos, so you can judge for yourself ther level of material VFM.

 

Simon

Just to put the record straight I have digital ac analogue ac and powerplus ac all different power plus is a beast of a thing 3/4" in diameter with industrial plug on one end and wattgate on other very stiff and heavy, but back to the digital the end with the iec has some kind of "bump" (ie some components) just at the cable entry under heatshrink (not prepared to cut heatshrink to find out whats underneath), the other end contains a standard looking M&K 3 pin plug the screw was sealed with a waxy like plastic that was easy to peel away (possibly in case fuse blows?) once opened the plug was very different from normal inside and ciontained 3 or four components, the wiring seemed to bridge earth and live via some of the components and all pins were flat topped and screwless with wires very well soldered ( I am sure that this is the handmade bit) It seemed well designed and executed and was extremely clever how all this fitted into standard plug not one bit of free space that I could see, may post some pics if some one will tell me how and where to host them.

I know the value of the components does not equal value of retail cost (but then I didn't pay full retail) however as with everything else the mark ups are taking into account developement costs etc New Naim power amp could be manufactured for a fraction of component cost as with averything else.

With other american products from Hifi to training shoes we end up paying the £ = $ thus making the digital ac £400 (some then add vat) when in fact it's retail price is £279 this includes £50 extra on top for British and swiss plugs as they are different with their non power cables we pay american price converted at exchange rates, Ie $100 = £65 (don't know current exchange rate but you get the idea) So their power lead PRODUCT is infact different from standard eupen, JPS has in fact been very open and honest (IMHO) over this when other manufacturers large and SMALL have threatened lawsuits at this unsubstantiated attack on their product, The post was removed by the moderator as in his opinion the claims were poor and could not be proven with very little to back up the argument the moderator goes on to answer a direct question on wether he has been threatened, to which he replied, that threats would have caused him to leave the post in place rather than remove it.

Its boils down to this, if you think the perceived value of the product is not worth it then don't buy it! no one is forcing you, and if you buy un auditioned product based on marketing claims then more full you, However if you can hear a difference and you think that the difference is worth the £279 asking price then surely no one is being ripped off.

Sorry for the long posts I just can't seem to get my point accross simply and eloquently for some reason.

Paul

 

Sorry couldn't be arsed to read anlougekids extraordinarily long posts but I did get most the way through the JPS thing.

As I read it (being someone who would dearly love to screw people by selling wire for xxx per metre) it said that he sold it for 100 dollars, but no one bought it. After speaking to business types they told him he wasn''t charging enough so he charged more.

Seems reasonable if you are gullible enough to pay.

 

Whats the big deal?
Russ Andrews has been doing this kind of thing for ages!
And charge extortionate prices.

Caveat Emptor.

 

Garyi with all due respect if you only read most of something and can't be arsed to read my long posts then surely you are not in a position to comment.

What he actually said is that he was making in the small scale and charging $100 (what it cost to make plus a small amount for his time) for it but due to the quantities of raw material he had to buy (ever heard of stock pressure?) and the relatively small turnover he had to make the product more expensive in order to remain in business, a business which is basically the luxury goods business which in order to be succesful you have to charge luxury prices, its part of the buying apeal for some people.

Maybe you should read all of something before making comments, makes you look less foolish that way sir.

 

Mr Kid, you are most likely right, however tis is a long story about a wire. Thats right a bit of wire.

So people consider this important, others do not. I fall into the latter camp. He is basicallyy a business man in business to sell something that costs little for a lot to gullible people.

 

dear Garyi

I bow down to your superior experience of gullibility- I have had a look at the kit you have posted in "My Kit" and sir I realise how gullible you really are

 

Thanks Kid, you'll have to show me where I can by a 'Wizard' thingy-me-bob and then I'll stop with the music and start worrying about wire

 

Garyi to explain previous post, have never really "got" the Naim/Linn/Flat earth sound, seems so much marketing hype to me, gullible is spending thousands constantly upgrading, for example, LP12, instead of trading it in for something good like a Simon Yorke or SME, of course this is just IMHO. :MILD:

Just love this wonderful hobby (HiFi not arguing) so subjective that opinions are constantly divided.

Have a great holiday weekend sir.

Paul