Shoot first

penance said:
They have the potential to make it worse.

We are at war, but the problem is, who are we fighting?
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Yeap. Police and the army have their role cut out already. However, for the rest of us are we all suppose to accept this things that our politicians declaration of war on terror? Should we not need to stop of few moments and think again more carefully this time. Are our life at present really so seriously in danger compare to yesterday, one month or a few years ago? Lets concentrate on fighting what we started a few weeks ago like poverty and injustise of our world economy? Maybe even our inner racism?
 
Well said Wolfgang..

Lasting and the only real solution, IMHO, is to address the fundamental problems. And those to go beyond relationship and policies of the 'west' towards middle east.

Increasing energy consumption, consumerism and an economic system that relies on growth and inflation are all to blame.

Tackle these issues honestly and intelligently and 80% of the problems that face mankind will go away.
 
Oh yes, well lets start by ending production of our nasty, polluting hifi , thinking of all the resources it uses up. Plus , think about the money we spend on cables that could go to the starving. Yeah, I'm going to get a wind-up radio instead.
 
I was thinking, the weapons the police use are light and accurate, typically the MP5. I've got a much better idea: issue each firearms officer with a horn muzzled Blunderbuss . That way if he sees a group of suspicious looking characters he can blooter the lot of them in one go. :clint:
 
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wolfgang Writes

''Yeap. Police and the army have their role cut out already. However, for the rest of us are we all suppose to accept this things that our politicians declaration of war on terror? Should we not need to stop of few moments and think again more carefully this time. Are our life at present really so seriously in danger compare to yesterday, one month or a few years ago? Lets concentrate on fighting what we started a few weeks ago like poverty and injustise of our world economy? Maybe even our inner racism?''


To answer your question about whether we are in more danger than we were a year ago well given that we have 4 or 5 fustrated suicide bombers roaming the street down here i'd say yes we are, wouldn't you? what's inner racism by the way.

as for your point about concentrating on poverty and injustice , i agree, long term it has to be a cornerstone of reducing the risk of this happening again, apart from anything else. in the interim we've got some people to find.
 
johnhunt said:
i agree with Matt and graham c's comments are small minded in the extreme
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Why? If it's true that his visa wasn't valid, he should never have been here in the first place. That in NO WAY excuses the police, but it's a valid point.

You can flame me all you want for that, but if your life in Brazil is so bad that you flee from the cops to avert being deported, THE DAY AFTER THE BOMBS, than maybe you should have claimed asylum. If that wasn't the case, and the story about him staying on to earn money to send home to his family is true, than that's one hell of a big risk to take in the current climate...

Think about it.
 
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domfjbrown said:
Why? If it's true that his visa wasn't valid, he should never have been here in the first place. That in NO WAY excuses the police, but it's a valid point.
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According to today's reports, he was here legally, so you'll have to think of another reason to demonise him.
 
BlueMax said:
It is very possible many more innocent people murdered in the hands of the armed police and the terroists. "collateral damage"; to borrow a phrase from the americans.
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Great - another keyboard critic labelling the armed police murderers!

So, fella, what would you have done - pulled the trigger or disobeyed direct orders and put dozens of lives at risk?

And, if you hadn't pulled the trigger and the suspect DID turn out to be a bomber and he blew up a carriage full of innocents, how would you feel then?

Matt.
 
BlueMax said:
Increasing energy consumption, consumerism and an economic system that relies on growth and inflation are all to blame.
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I'm a little confused.

Are you saying that if:

1. We all start driving solar powered cars
2. We stop buying unneccesary things
2. The economy goes into recession
3. Inflation reduces to zero

..that the muslim extremists will no longer wish to kill us for being infidels?

:rds2:

Matt.
 
domfjbrown said:
Why? If it's true that his visa wasn't valid, he should never have been here in the first place. That in NO WAY excuses the police, but it's a valid point.

You can flame me all you want for that, but if your life in Brazil is so bad that you flee from the cops to avert being deported, THE DAY AFTER THE BOMBS, than maybe you should have claimed asylum. If that wasn't the case, and the story about him staying on to earn money to send home to his family is true, than that's one hell of a big risk to take in the current climate...

Think about it.
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ask, why did he run, why did he jump the gates, why did he not obay the police instructions, why did he come out of the bombers house, he understood english, innicient?, very unlikely, they just can't make the connection.

Now it turns out we even paid for one for the bombers to live here on housing benifit, just keeps getting better and better, we probably gave him chemistry lesons to show him how to make the bombs too.

Quote from the BBC news site.

Enfield Council confirmed he [Yasin Hassan Omar] had been a tenant at Curtis House, Ladderswood Way, and had been receiving £75 a week in housing benefit.
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Shoot to kill, yes, these people want to kill as many of us as they can. but maybe they need to rethink just how to go about it.

We live in troubled times, which call for despriate measure, just think, what if one of those bombers had a nuclear device? doesn't bare thinking about.

We have to stop them, dead.
 
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michaelab said:
Lee and Dom, your ignorance is astonishing :mad:

Michael.
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How do you come to that then?

I didn't say that police should go around shooting everyone they see. but this guy acted suspiciously, didn't respond to police commands and ran, why? Those don't seem the actions of an innicent man to me.
 
I agree with Lee on this one...tho, I'm not sure why the police didn't act when they saw him at the bus stop before getting on the bus...

no offence, but there would have been a much bigger uproar if the police had done what they done - as in follow him, but allowed him to escape and blow up a train / bus or whatever...

michael, maybe if it had been closer to where you live, then maybe you'd empathise a bit more...
 
There was a programme on beeb 2 last night looking at who these people actually are. Bit of an eye-opener really, in many ways it seems that this is a cyber war and the boundaries between whats real and whats virtual are getting very blurred indeed. Alot of these people who are being recruited are well-educated and in many cases financially stable individuals. I dont know whats driving them to do these things but its almost like a craze that young people get involved with coz they've nothing else in their life and are looking to identify with something.

What I cant understand is how these web-sites, forums and chat-rooms which are the hub of most activity are allowed to operate so freely. Surely this is enciting hatred?
 
penance said:
Must agrre, i dont see why dom and lee are ignorant.
Maybe you are ignorant of all the facts, making assumptions on media reporting so far?
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We are all ignorant of all the facts, and we are all making assumptions based on media reporting, tempered by our own prejudices. I do not exclude myself.

At one extreme, the line goes:

'He was shot by the police, therefore he is a wrong 'un, otherwise he wouldn't have been shot'

At the other extreme, it's:

'The person shot was not a terrorist, therefore the police are trigger-happy.

The truth no doubt lies somewhere between these two.
 
mr cat said:
michael, maybe if it had been closer to where you live, then maybe you'd empathise a bit more...
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I was on a Jubilee Line train at the time of the 7/7 bombings. When it became clear what had happened, we were all evacuated from the train, and then the station (Canada Water).

Close enough for you?

My earlier post was in response to Dom's post about the guy's visa running out (apparently now thought not to be the case) and his reference to claiming asylum which showed a complete ignorance of what claiming asylum even is.

Lee mentioned of the possibility that one of the bombers might have been on benefits. So what? It's completely irrelevant. He was probably entitled to them.

As for not being the actions of an innocent man, wtf would you do if a bunch of guys in plain clothes with guns, who you don't know from Adam, start chasing you? Run like hell is what I would do. Remember, he was from Brazil, where you don't hang around if you see guys with guns.

It's clear that there was a massive phuque up somewhere becuase there was only the flimisiest of circumstantial evidence connecting this guy to any terrorist activity. He lived in the same block of flats as them and was wearing a heavy coat - OK, must be a terrorist then :rolleyes: ....but it was OK for him to get on a bus?

Then take the actual shooting. EIGHT shots - 7 to the head and one to the shoulder - at point blank range. Sounds like a bloke who's panicked and lost it not the professional calm and control you'd expect of a firearms officer. With loose cannons like that guy in the met we should all be afraid.

Michael.
 

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