Shoot first

[penance]

Must admit Lee, that is a bit strong.
Death for overstaying your welcome, well, i guess the Nazi's had it right all along

 

[lordsummit]

I've removed Lee's comment. I found it offensive and in very poor taste. I've also edited Michaels post that contained a reference to it, although I quite agree with Michael.
Can we please treat this subject and particularly the unfortunate man who was killed with a little dignity.

 

[lhatkins]

Source?

BBC News 24 and Sky News, I haven't checked news.bbc.co.uk yet, but I'm sure its there.

bbc news site

So you think it's fine for any illegal immigrant who runs from the police to be shot and killed?

No, but when people said the guy was innocient, they where wrong, he shouldn't have been here and if he wasn't this wouldn't have happened so its not all the police's fault. Again I didn't say that the police should shot anyone they choose, but anyone thinking they can come here illegally should take into consideration that they will be in the firing line, so to speak.

 

[penance]

Lee,
He WAS innocent of terrorist activity, for which he was killed.
Anything else is irrelevant, you are grasping at straws to justify your slightly racist tilt.

 

[penance]

Also, he did not 'come' here illegaly, he had a working visa that had expired.
Get your facts right before making your judgement.
Why should some who 'did' come here illegaly be in the firing line? Surely deportation is enough in that case?

So if you do anything slightly illegal you are prepared to be shot by the police? after all, that is what you are saying.

Maybe you should consider what you are posting, because at the moment you are making yourself look like a bigoted uneducated racist.

 

[michaelab]

Thanks Andy - completely agree.
Michael.

 

[lhatkins]

Also, he did not 'come' here illegaly, he had a working visa that had expired.
Get your facts right before making your judgement.
Why should some who 'did' come here illegaly be in the firing line? Surely deportation is enough in that case?

So if you do anything slightly illegal you are prepared to be shot by the police? after all, that is what you are saying.

Maybe you should consider what you are posting, because at the moment you are making yourself look like a bigoted uneducated racist.

Or rather count to 10 and reread my posts before posting them. I know I do tend to write things in the heat of the moment. I do my best to back up my opinions.

Ok agreed, I did get that thing wrong, so the visa was expired, right, but he was still working here illeagally, I wouldn't call that slightly illegal either. No this is no reason for him to be shot, and I'll stop there.

bigoted = ?
uneducated = well possibly, my opinions are media fed
BUT racist WTF? Racist, how, I've not mentioned or singled out any race or culture at all.

 

[BlueMax]

Also, he did not 'come' here illegaly, he had a working visa that had expired.
Get your facts right before making your judgement.
Why should some who 'did' come here illegaly be in the firing line? Surely deportation is enough in that case?

So if you do anything slightly illegal you are prepared to be shot by the police? after all, that is what you are saying.

Maybe you should consider what you are posting, because at the moment you are making yourself look like a bigoted uneducated racist.

The likes of BNP always explot the situation by putting a spin on it. Thier actions, mud slinging and indoctrination of naive and impressionable losers in the society has lead to attacks and murders of innocent people. They are just as dangerous as terrorists of any discription.
I do not understand why makers of the new anti terrorist laws missed these self confessed facists.

 

[penance]

Bigoted and racist is natural conclusion to draw from your postings, sorry Lee, but that is hopw they come across.

I am just as guilty of posting in the heat, i am sure i piss people off by doing it.
With a subject like this i think we need to stand back and carfully consider what we are saying.

 

[penance]

The likes of BNP always explot the situation by putting a spin on it. Thier actions, mud slinging and indoctrination of naive and impressionable losers in the society has lead to attacks and murders of innocent people. They are just as dangerous as terrorists of any discription.

Agreed

I do not understand why makers of the new anti terrorist laws missed these self confessed facists.

Because they are UK people, and politicians are blinkered.

Like the picture BTW.

 

[Will]

You what ? Their asylum policy has come in for more stick than almost any other. It's both racist and cruelly inhumane. Their Woomera detention centre (in the middle of an inhospitable desert) for asylum seekers who's cases have yet to be heard is little better than a concentration camp.

It's used for "illegal asylum seekers" allthough there is actually no such thing. It's impossible for an asylum seeker to be "illegal". If they enter the country illegally or without any documents they are still just an asylum seeker like any other. If their application is denied and they remain in the country then they become an illegal immigrant.

Australia has even devised the sinister sounding Pacific Solution for handling asylum claims outside of it's own borders. I recall there was someone in 1940s Germany who also devised a "Solution" for people he didn't want in his country...

Michael.

'Little more than a concenctration camp' I feel is over egging the pudding rather severely michael, its no 5 star hotel thats for sure but last time I checked the Aussies didn't have a plan in place for extermination of asylum seekers in any number.

I agree with you on the concept of 'illegal asylum seekers' being a flawed one - you can be an illegal immigrant, or claiming asylum illegitimately, but being an 'illegal asylum seeker' - I don't think so! Unless you're pedantic and accept that as meaning an asylum seeker who entered the country through illegal means (in the back of a lorry), but their method of entry bears no relationshop to the legitimacy/legality of their asylum claim.

As for 'The pacific solution' of offshore detention, I can well believe those there are subject to very difficult conditions as the Amnesty article alludes to, but your comparisons to the Nazis 'Final solution' are frankly almost insulting to those who died at the hands of the Nazis - the treatment of Australias asylum seekers is nothing close in scale, method, or intent to what the Nazis did (which I remind you, I have seen at both Dachau and Auschwitz).

 

[Hex Spurt]

My apologies to all for crashing in at this late stage, I hope I'm not covering old ground...

The shooting of the Brazilian guy is a tragic accident. However, the marksmen and commanders involved will all have to live with the knowledge that they took an innocent life. They will also be held accountable in law for their actions. That won't assuage the grief of his family but it is more comfort than the families of the bomb victims will receive.

I don't condone a shoot to kill policy, but had I been there on that day and facing the real possibility that this person was a human bomb then I think I'd have been shouting "shoot him" too. If we're all honest, and given the exceptional circumstances of the previous weeks, wouldn't most of us have done the same thing?

Doesn't the fact that these terrorists strike soft targets without any warning show a basic lack of morality. I have no sympathy for them or their cause. What I find even more distasteful is that they enjoyed the freedoms and liberties afforded to British citizens whilst plotting such cowardly acts.

Even if caught and convicted, what's the worst these people can expect? A life behind bars. No doubt we British taxpayers will pick up the huge bills for the trial, the imprisonment and the inevitable round of appeals.

Had these atrocities been carried out against the people of Iran, Saudi Arabia or Sadam's Iraq then I am sure that the 'failed four' would have been found and dealt with more swiftly. Death would have been inevitable whether at the hands of a mob, the Security Services or a Court of Law.

Back to the subject of Asylum Seekers, isn't Britain already a country of immigrants, of refugees and of conquerors; so who are we to cast the first stone?

However, I don't hold with the liberal idea of a racial melting pot either. Ethnic identity is important. That's what gives the culture its flavour. What is missing is a sense of British patriotism. I hate to say it but the Americans have the right idea. Everyone pledges their allegiance to the national flag.

 

[lhatkins]

Bigoted and racist is natural conclusion to draw from your postings, sorry Lee, but that is hopw they come across.

I am just as guilty of posting in the heat, i am sure i piss people off by doing it.
With a subject like this i think we need to stand back and carfully consider what we are saying.

That's fair enough penance but can you explain what it was about my opinions that makes you think this?

Bigot
One who through ignorance adheres obstinately to a social, political, or religious belief, opinion, or practise, and is intolerant of others who hold different views.

I'm not intolerant of other peoples views, others are of mine.

 

[BlueMax]

Back to the subject of Asylum Seekers, isn't Britain already a country of immigrants, of refugees and of conquerors; so who are we to cast the first stone?

Welcome to the discussion. You have raised some interesting points.

One fact that is seldom publicised by the govt and media is that Asylum Seekers, Illegal Imigrants and such people provide cheap labour. Many companies use them profitably. Much of the rag trade in London have been for many years, sweat shops using such labour. You find them slaving away in the kitchens of many posh hotels and restaurants. Devoid of statutory rights they are often exploited. However they do contribute to the economy and prop up industries that have long lost competetive advantage in the market place.

However, I don't hold with the liberal idea of a racial melting pot either. Ethnic identity is important. That's what gives the culture its flavour.

Yes. Forcibly taking away ones cultural identity away is cruel and unfair.

Then there are some of us who enjoy the cultural diversity found in cities such as London. Variety is the spice of life; as they say.

Melting pot it might very well be but it has to happen natuarally over a few generations; as it has in the past; in this country and in many regions of the world.

What is missing is a sense of British patriotism. I hate to say it but the Americans have the right idea. Everyone pledges their allegiance to the national flag.

Pariotism per se is positive. In the US however, people often get labelled 'unpariotic' when views of free thinking individuals happened to oppose the goverment. People who were against the Vietnam war and more recently the invasion of Iraq.

 

[Lt Cdr Data]

Back to the subject of Asylum Seekers, isn't Britain already a country of immigrants, of refugees and of conquerors; so who are we to cast the first stone?

However, I don't hold with the liberal idea of a racial melting pot either. Ethnic identity is important. That's what gives the culture its flavour. What is missing is a sense of British patriotism. I hate to say it but the Americans have the right idea. Everyone pledges their allegiance to the national flag.

True, whoever said there was anything WRONG with immigrants, please read the posts carefully, I am a very humane person who believes in the value of people and helping them.

I just question the numbers coming here ,we are too full as it is we cannot take more, that has been said for 40 years, now look at house prices, its no coiincidence.

that's not racist, if anyone thinks so, that is pretty narrow minded and dismissive.

Dean's supply and demand is partly right, but that's not entirely economics.

there is price fixing. look at the obscene inflated prices of new builds. these bear no comparison to older stock, prices are highly inflated.

yes supply and demand, too much supply, too high population density.

I know a person who owns 12 houses, from my reading a very good paper, this sort of thing is rife, people all over buying houses to make cash on, happened next door to me, , some greedy young upstart taking housing and nicking good people's cash, all he does is buy and sell houses, they ain't a commodity to trade, they are for decent people

in my not so humble opinion, it should be one person one house.

This may get some stick but its intended as darwinian, and I trained as a scientist, I have little knowledge of politics, philosophy, and all that....

perhaps the reason why so many immigrants want to come here is that we are superior as a soiciety, technologically, much as countries like china are coming on, my hifi experiences and many others lead me to believe they can now make things, but they are not as good at engineering, the design stage, our, including europe, germany, france, holland, usa, canada, perhaps australia and japan, are superior more evolved countries, nicer places societally and technoligically,

NOT in some respects morally or spiritually, I have a few books on eastern religion.

its not a nice thing to say, and I don't believe this, as I used to be a christian and now have buddhist leanings, but perhaps its natures way of saying that the 3rd world has not been darwinianlly selected for survival, and simple biological mechanisms are at work.
whilst man interceding because he can may well be the death of us, the world won't support any huge population, overcrowding, disease, food, etc., so instead of man evolving, his 'kindness' may well destroy us all.

that is not said from a facist viewpoint, which I have little knowledge, , never studied it at school, uni, got no books, been to no meetings, just my scientists commenting on that. AS a 'human' person who believes people have inherent value, I don't know how the two should meet.

However, I don't hold with the liberal idea of a racial melting pot either. Ethnic identity is important. That's what gives the culture its flavour. What is missing is a sense of British patriotism. I hate to say it but the Americans have the right idea. Everyone pledges their allegiance to the national flag.

britain sadly is now a travesty with faceless white middle class pen pushers with no personality or sense of humour that have betrayed our wonderful traditions in the sake of crass p.c. like I have said many times, why should a majority change for the minority, that's not democratic, people coming here should accept our laws like we, and I respect and accept theirs when I go abroad. If they don't like it they shouldn't choose to live here.tho I agree its bad manners not to accomodate, we of course as hosts should be graceful, but not change our whole way of life for a few that is too far. its mad really

we have no sense of patriotism, and are shamefully embarrased about it, any mention of britishness invites ideas of shaven lager louts and thugs. I ain't embarrassed, and people who are, are betrayers, I proudly display our flag, taking it back from the extreme right wing for celebration again. This is a national tragedy, and p.c. is the worst thing to happen to this country, its values have been destroyed by white tyeps people who ban our songs like land of hope and glory...I agree britain rules the waves and never will be slaves IS dubious.

I think they just make these stupid ideas as its fashionable and they have no brain, the reasons its largley the public sector says it all...councils, nhs, police, can't manage a piss up in a brewery.

 

[domfjbrown]

Doesn't the fact that these terrorists strike soft targets without any warning show a basic lack of morality. I have no sympathy for them or their cause. What I find even more distasteful is that they enjoyed the freedoms and liberties afforded to British citizens whilst plotting such cowardly acts.

Yeah, I don't see them complaining as they grab the cash for their flat, heating bill, food, etc - if Westerners are such "infidels" then why are these people so happy to take our cash? Double fekking standards!

A mate keeps telling me that WE shot innocent people in Iraq etc. He's missing one vital point - our people in Iraq are SOLDIERS doing the killing - whether innocent civilian or enemy army. The terrorists over here are civilians targetting civilians. There's a big difference.

If you look at the stats of UK citizens who didn't want the Afghanistan/Iraq wars versus the people who did, it seems a tad unfair to blow up whoever you like when the general feeling of the main populus is that "we didn't want the wars".

Sorry - a bit off topic there...

BTW - I agree with Lee on one thing - if the Brazilian went home when he was supposed to, he wouldn't have been shot. Simple really. That's NO excuse for killing him - of course not! - and if it wasn't him it may or may not have been some other innocent person, but that still doesn't alter the fact that he should HAVE GONE HOME WHEN HIS VISA RAN OUT. That's not racist - it's a simple brass tacks matter of fact!

We (Lee and I) know of a certain acquaintence who (funnily enough) stayed in Oz after their, ahem, visa ran out. Not big and not clever. He's back home now (and didn't get caught) but it was a really stupid thing to do - I was NOT impressed.

Of course, not even the people who are supposed to KNOW how many people, legal, asylum, illegal, or t'otherwise, are here know how many people are staying on past the "welcome" of their visas - it's totally messed up!

Back to the shooting though - it's a shame the Police don't take out rapists and pedder-asses "by mistake" - and they could also "accidentally" take out some of the kingpin "pharmaceutical distributors" while they're at it - though that might piss Pete Doherty off.

 

[leonard smalls]

and they could also "accidentally" take out some of the kingpin "pharmaceutical distributors" while they're at it - though that might piss Pete Doherty off.

Far better to make it legal and collect the tax!
Governments should accept that folks will do what they want to do whether it's good for them or not.
Nowt worse than being nannied!

 

[domfjbrown]

aaah - well, see, I didn't want to put that option due to potential repercussions, but certainly, taxing it all and controlling it would be a far better idea than prohibition! After all, booze'n'cigs get through more in a day than all the illegal drugs in a year (OK, no facts, that's guesswork, but I bet it's not far off being accurate!).

If tobacco was being classified now, it'd be a Class A and no mistake!

 

[Hex Spurt]

...I just question the numbers coming here ,we are too full as it is we cannot take more, that has been said for 40 years, now look at house prices, its no coiincidence.

I'm willing to be convinced that house price rises are a direct result of immigration, but I think it has more to do with increased expectations and rising standards of living.

80 years ago the average worker would have expected to live in private rented accomodation. 40 years ago they were still renting but this time the Government was the landlord. 25 yrs ago the Goverment of the day introduced the Right to Buy scheme. Millions of renters got the chance to buy a home at a knockdown price. That was significant. Britain quickly became a nation of property owners rather than renters. Houses have been seen an investment ever since.

 

[Cloth-Ears]

............and irresponsible lending ...... and the explosion of buy to let ........and stable low interest rates ..........and lack of building space permitted ......and longer terms ( really we've got to watch that one getting established -just say no !!) ....... and our mutually reinforced expectations of wealth through property almost like an hysteria.................

Jsut think what would happen to many many people if interest rates were to significantly rise.

I put a lot of blame for rising house prices on central government and their irresponsible attitude to lending institutions. I believe there is a case for more control. I say that as someone quite right wing on economic matters. The way money has been thrown at borrowers has stoked up prices and buy to let has become a common alternative to mainstream investment. Oh I can see the logic of doing it; I mean its self financing and you will get loaned for it unlike for investing in equities, say. But its caused hurt.

No, property prices sicken me sicken me sicken me. There was no need for it. It became an obsession. It hurts people , does not help people. It only benefits those who are finished on the ladder or those who are in it for extra, self financing investment. I pity those deep in if rates do rise in future. I anger at central government. There were alternatives . We're locked into a stupid self defeating spiral.

Another rant from Cloth-Ears then, but since house prices got mentioned I just couldn't resist it. Don't you agree with me? Are you not angry? Your little bit of extra wealth doesn't help you if you need to trade up. The merrygoround you jumped on got faster and you can't get off. You could end up being hurt by it. And still people look on with envy, wanting to get on. But they'll have to make do with the smaller, crappy ride next to it - not what they ever thought they would have to settle for. What happened?