Shoot first

oh arse, the bbc news site seems to have pulled the artical that stated it was the bombers house he was seen leaving, so they've corrected themselves, (probably to stop them being sued) but I did see it there and on SKY NEWS originally and obvioulsy this is incorrect. Maybe the media should learn a lesson about getting their ***king facts right.
Apologies and I withdraw my statement.

 

And unfortunately was relatively dark skinned and came from a country where 20 odd degrees celcius is COLD and so was wearing a heavy coat. I know a lot of Brasilians, (my wife is one), and I know for a fact that this whole argument about him wearing a heavy coat in "hot" weather is just a lot of geographic ignorance. It was NOT hot on that day for any Brasilian that I know. Before anyone pipes up with "he's been here for 4 years he should be aclimatised by now", YOU move to another country with a dramatically different climate and then come back and make that statment. It takes a lot longer than 4 years to get used to a new climate, epecially if you're in your late 20s.

GTM

 

Have you got proof of that, as thousands of British went to Aussie and aclimatised in under 4 years i have 9 members of family who had a problem for 6 months then were ok.

 

Well how would you know they have fully aclimatised going from cold to hot? they can hardly keep clothes on to prove it can they?

Proof, yes sure. The over 20 Brasilians that I know personally that still put on jackets in what we would consider warm weather years after moving to this country. Haven't you ever noticed older asians still wearing jackets and coats in our summer? I have. Anyway who's proof do we have that he was wearing a "heavy" coat? The evidence of the eye witness that thought he was a pakistani maybe? or maybe that of the same police that shot him? all very credible evidence wouldn't you say? It's likely that he was just wearing a jacket. Which given the habbit of stripping off to bare flesh as soon as the sun appears that us brits have I can see how any outer wear might be considered "odd", but for a lot of people in this country, (especially London), 20-25 degrees isn't even considered warm. The aclimatisation period is moot anyway, the police had no way of knowing how long he had been living here. He could very well have only just turned up. London is FULL of foreigners in summer from far hotter climates walking around wearing jackets on cooler days. Which that Friday was. To drive the point home, on that very day a Brasilian freind of mine turned up at my house wearing a quilted jacket !!

GTM

 

Hi,

From the start of this incident hitting the news, there were a number of things that seemed strange. As it unfolded, things seemed more odd. A lot of questions do need to be answered. One main comment is why didn't the police challenge Jean Charles de Menezes before he got to the station? Where did they get the info that Mr Menezes was a terrorist? Hopefully, the truth will come out.

The Media likes to get the news to the masses as it happens. Too often this news can be half truths, lies or speculation. It's great when it gets it right, damaging when it gets it wrong. At times, it's like never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

At the end of the day, a hell of a lot of people in this country have the potential of being terrorists. A lot people have know how to cause injury, havoc and death. Information on doing it is taught in schools, in colleges, in university, in workplaces, in the home, from libraries, off the internet, from book, from the armed forces etc. Alot of this is funded by our society.

The vast numbers of these people will not cause havoc because it morally wrong and they don't want to hurt people, etc. A small percentage will be capable of doing these nasty acts and will do them if given the chance.

What has this got to do with Asylum? Evil people come in all shapes, sizes and colours. Benefits don't neccessary make people evil.

Evil people will commit crimes for different reasons. Plenty of evil people are not asylum seekers and been granted asylum. A lot of asylum seeker want to do well in this country and contribute to it.

Getting rid of extermists is something talked but how far do you go? This country has had various extermists over the years but are not a major problem if they keep within the law.

People kill and cause havoc for different reasons. They have done for centuries. You can't blame it all on the telly.

I go along with Heavymental's comments, Ian. On the face of it, there plenty of people, non muslims, who don't mix. Plenty of white British people don't mix with each other.

From experience, a lot of problems are due to how people can view various groups. alot of this viewing is done with little knowledge, hearsay and rumour. This leads to stereotyping and mistrust. Too often we people use one bad example of someone from a group and think they are all like that.

Intergration has a lot to do with being able to get on with people who are different to you. This can be race, religion or culture. We all need to work together to improve our society.

On the other hand, don't be surprised if muslims like Dad's Army or White British people liking Bollywood films. There are loads of examples of people from different cultures and backgrounds have intergrated with ideas and items from other cultures.

Food is one of the biggest ones with the rise of spicy foods from all around the world becoming every day fare.

Music is another. A big example is with Black American music becoming the corner shop of alot of popular music. We have also seen it go both ways. Black American music influencing white British Bands, who in turn influence American bands with their hybrid music.

We have seen the mix of culture with religion and culture. An example, Christanity has embraced a number of pagan celebrations and adapted them for Christmas celebrations. I know plenty of muslims we send Christmas cards to wish people well.

At the end of the day, not all of these changes we're going to like.
But a level of tolerance needs to be shown, on all sides.

SCIDB

 

And then, as time passes, the "news" gets processed through PR channels and self-interest and government/military pressure - and comment is presented as fact. The media are nowhere near as benign as they (and their chums) want you to think. The quality of "news" does not necessarily improve with the passage of time.

 

On the subject of jackets and temperatures: I used to go to London a lot. Most times I'd take a "topless tour" bus because each new one gives a bit of a different take on the capital and its nice up there anyway for a couple of hours.

All the foreigners would have on jackets and even hoods up.

I used to like to sit there in a t-shirt on a freezing day, just to show Jonny-foreigner how its done. :banana:

 

A rather disturbing update

From the Channel 4 website:-

* The day after the July 21st London bomb attacks, at 9.30am, Mr de Menezes left his home - his block watched by police who thought it housed one of the would-be bombers.


* As Jean Charles made his way out, a surveillance officer was apparently relieving himself and couldn't communicate his observations or video him.


* De Menezes continued on his way - boarding a bus to Stockwell Tube Station.


* Gold Command instructed officers that he was to be stopped from entering the tube system. But this apparently didn't happen.


* De Menezes used his electronic card to pass legitimately through the barriers - he did not jump them - and even stopped to pick up a free newspaper.


* He started to run, possibly to catch a train just pulling in - as armed officers received positive identification of their target - and authorisation to shoot to kill.


Just watched the video on the site and it seems that Jean Charles De Menezes did not wear a heavy coat (just a Denim jacket, this is a fact now, as proven by a graphic picture in the video), did not run and wasn't even told to stop.

 

Exactly why people should refrain from extreme comment till the facts are known.

 

Yes, I saw the report and interview on Ch 4 this evening. There was a photo taken after the shooting. He was wearing a light denim jacket. Report also said that he was not carrying anything.

Murders in broad daylight by law enforcement agencis is daily occurence in the US. People there have somehow learnt to forget and get on with their lives.

Never thought I will see this kind of thing happening in Britain.

I hope there will be a public enquiry into this soon.

 

It's a hell of a lot worse than that !!


He even took a seat.

He was actually already restrained by an undercover police officer

He was shot in the head at close range (about a foot) whilst still seated and restrained by the undercover police officer, who according to his own testimony was pulled off and thrown on the floor.


They shot at him 11 times during which time he slumped to the floor to his final resting place as shown in that picture.

If these had been the actions of some gun toting vigilante member of the public what would the police and government be saying then? They sure as hell wouldn't be using the excuse of the recent events. Just because they were police officers makes no difference to their actions in my eyes. In fact given that they should have had better intelligence and better training it make their actions a whole order of magnitude WORSE than if it had been a nervous member of the public.



Cold blooded murder IMO.


GTM

 

Certainly looks that way now

 

The officer in questions will almost certainly get done for it based on the circumstances revealed in these documents, whilst others will probably face disciplinary action...and rightly so really. I was behind the police 100% based upon the circumstances surrounding the shooting as originally described at the time, but the differences between that and the apparent truth are such that the way the police acted was unprofessional and/or negligent in some cases and extremely reckless in others.

 

This is very sad and not great for the British police.

You have to also ask why the facts of this event have changed so much since it originally broke.

I'm afraid I agree with GTM.

 

This murder was not by our ordinary bobby on the beat.

It was by special squads that are trained, conditioned and well rehearsed to kill. Once they get the order rest is reflex action.

What is also worrying is the false story about the events and Mr. Menzies that the police put out as excuses.

Shooting to kill without challenging may be the only way possible with suicide bombers but it should be suspended till the police sort out their act.

 

I'd understand the need for a "shoot to kill to protect" policy if there was reasonable grounds for suspecting a victim. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

However, it should be pointed out that the leak might not be 100% accurate either. Apparently it could be several months before the full "facts" are revealed to us. Why does it take so long? Doesn't some of the evidence lose credibility after a while? If some of the things revealed so far by the leak are true then IMO it's very shameful the way the security forces tried to cover it up.

 

No, I don't think so but the passing of time does in my view allow lots of speculation to cloud the issue and speculation repeated many times may sometimes seem to assume the mantle of truth.

"A lie can be halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on." I expect this equally applies to speculation.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

I think I'll wait for the *proper* facts before I go jumping to conclusions based on what the media has to say about it...

 

Anyone who has seen the photograph of the victim, lying near a pool of blood, would not have any doubts about the "proper facts" about what he was wearing.
Blatant lie by the police is clear for anyone to see.

 

Ah yes, hindsight again BM. Easy for you to say, when you are sitting behind your monitor typing these messages, but you werent the one who was there, taking your orders. Its easy to say now.

Personally I would wait until we see an official report before jumping to conclusions.