Sky News - dumb & dumber

[Paul Ranson]

To be told that I would be arrested for doing so is frankly absurd.

It is absurd. Absurd to the point that your reporting it as truth makes me question your motives.

There are many serious historians working on the Holocaust.

but in respect of evidence of mass gassings, well there simply isnt any. All we can rely on is eye witness reports. In a court of law the evidence would be dismissed.

This is Holocaust Denial. And, FWIW, the evidence has been tested in a British court, as any semi-serious person would know.

Paul

 

[saddam]

What about 6 million dead Jews? You don't kill 6 million people in a relatively short period of time without some fairly intensive mass killiing.

I feel i am portraying myself not too well here but never mind, i am only reporting what I have read.

Anyhow, I am glad you have bought this up. The way in which the number of 6 million was compiled means that it simply cannot be accurate. Basically, the number of Jews in Europe was counted before the war and then again afterwards. There were 6 million less. That is how the number came to be. Clearly this is massivly flawed. Over 1 million fled to the USA and a large number (i forget exactly) relocated to Palestine. And that is those that we know of, I am sure many Jews located to places as illegal immigrants which of course would not be counted.

Also the death toll for Auschwitz was originally calculated at 4 million. When historians such as David Irving started to question this (to the ruin of his career almost) the figure was lowered to 1.2 million. That leaves a 2.8 million defecit. Although it was removed from the Auschwitz numbers, it was not removed from the 6 million. Combine this with the amount who fled Europe to go live elsewhere and you can see that the 6 million figure is massivly reduced.

Now, as i have stated, i have been studying this for around a year, and it is my opinion that around 300,000 Jews lost their lives in Nazi Germany. Of course this is a tragedy and should never be forgot and is clearly a stain upon humankind. I was simply making the point that the only evidence available to the masses are biased accounts such as that of Elie Wiessel, who's evidence, despite winning numerous awards is verging on the proposterous.

 

[saddam]

Flimsy?, and you are being open-minded? The buildings along with instruments exist, there are mass graves that points to the scale of the killings. You are not denying it took place, so, what's there left to study? the exact numbers?

The only people I've heard deny holocaust (which you aren't) are normally with extreme right views.

In my view even if one human was experimented on/tortured/killed for their race it's too many.

I agree, it was wrong and i am in no way condoning it. But contrary to your point these buildings don't exist and the ones that do are reconstructions. The most famous one at Auschwitz (the only one there) is a reconstruction despite them telling visitors that it is genuine. The ex-president of the museum admits as much.

 

[saddam]

It is absurd. Absurd to the point that your reporting it as truth makes me question your motives.

There are many serious historians working on the Holocaust.


This is Holocaust Denial. And, FWIW, the evidence has been tested in a British court, as any semi-serious person would know.

Paul

I do not deny the holocaust i am simply questioning it based on historical evidence. Its what historians do. Are you really suggesting that professors of European History are not serious people?

 

[Dev]

Saddam,

As I'm sure you'll appreciate there is a massive gulf between 300,000 and 6 million. Most historian seem to accept the higher number but you are entitled to believe what you want. I would like to ask why you are questioning this figure? I don't see how it's related in any way to free speech.

 

[saddam]

Saddam,

As I'm sure you'll appreciate there is a massive gulf between 300,000 and 6 million. Most historian seem to accept the higher number but you are entitled to believe what you want. I would like to ask why you are questioning this figure? I don't see how it's related in any way to free speech.

Firstly I have explained how this figure came about and anyone who dare challenge it faces the accusations i have just recieved (questionable motives, stupid etc).

I was merely replying to the quotation by domfjbrown that people are stupid because there is so much evidence. I was stating that i am not stupid (i am studying phd) and i do not believe that the evidence is clear to see. Then it snowballed

 

[I-S]

it is my opinion that around 300,000 Jews lost their lives in Nazi Germany.

Whilst the 6 million figure is perhaps an over-estimate, my opinion is that your 300k figure is an under-estimate.

The real issue is not necessarily the figure, but the intent behind the deaths. More recently referred to as "ethnic cleansing", and this is something that is never justified. Not on grounds of colour, religion, sexuality nor any other aspect of a person's being.

 

[julian2002]

saddam,
i think you are on a hide into nothing here. this is one of those subject that is so wrapped up in other issues that the truth may never be known. as has been said, the fact that anyone lost their life in such a hideous manner is enough to condemn the nazi's and they have plenty of other crimes to answer for.
i think it's important to question 'accepted truths' if there is ANY doubt about their veracity, however this has to be done in a sensitive way if you're not going to piss a lot of people off. unfortunately the holocaust is probably the most emotionaly charged recent historical event and so requires more sensitivity than other situations.
personally i think saddams comments are controvertial but i don;t think he's said anything to deny the holocaust, what i do think is that some people are not reading what he's written and are jerking their knees.
cheers


julian

 

[saddam]

personally i think saddams comments are controvertial but i don;t think he's said anything to deny the holocaust, what i do think is that some people are not reading what he's written and are jerking their knees.
cheers

Thank you for showing some sense Juilian. There is no doubt what i have posted is controversial but i would like to think that after a year of extensivly studying the subject people would be willing to at least listen to what i say.

 

[Paul Ranson]

I do not deny the holocaust i am simply questioning it based on historical evidence. Its what historians do. Are you really suggesting that professors of European History are not serious people?

You stated that there was no evidence of mass gassings. This is incorrect.

You stated "I was told in no uncertain terms that i would be arrested under 'hate laws' and could even be extraditied to Israel to face charges!!". This is complete rubbish.

And now you're saying "it is my opinion that around 300,000 Jews lost their lives in Nazi Germany.". Since the great majority of the killing was carried out outside of Germany this may be true, but it's hardly relevant.

Paul

 

[saddam]

You stated that there was no evidence of mass gassings. This is incorrect.

Apologies, I should have said 'convincing evidence'. If you could recount some of your evidence you have i would be very interested.

You stated "I was told in no uncertain terms that i would be arrested under 'hate laws' and could even be extraditied to Israel to face charges!!". This is complete rubbish.

Then why are people like Ernst Zündel locked away for simply stating the same things i just did?

And now you're saying "it is my opinion that around 300,000 Jews lost their lives in Nazi Germany.". Since the great majority of the killing was carried out outside of Germany this may be true, but it's hardly relevant.

Well it depends on who you read on whether it is relevent or not. I wont go into any more detail than that because i will be slandered even more than i already have for simply stating what i have read.

Your attitude seems to be that you think i am sticking up for Nazism?! This is not the case at all, i suggest you do as Julian has noted and actually read what i have said. I am not pro-Nazi at all and i in no way condone what they did. I am simply sticking up for my right to investigate historical events.

 

[lordsummit]

Saddam I'm not sure anyone feels you are sticking up for Nazism, but your viewpoint doesn't look so good when you look at your forum name and avatar. It is an emotive subject you are discussing. You may have chosen your persona intending to be ironic, but I feel it's contributing to the response you've got back. After all genocide is one crime we all know Saddam committed. Perhaps this is why you've got so many backs up.
I presume your PHD has something to do with this area. Perhaps you could state your sources properly. I would also be interested in how else you explain the huge decrease in the Jewish community in the war years, and what happened to the Polish and German jewish communities if they weren't killed.

 

[saddam]

Saddam I'm not sure anyone feels you are sticking up for Nazism, but your viewpoint doesn't look so good when you look at your forum name and avatar. It is an emotive subject you are discussing. You may have chosen your persona intending to be ironic, but I feel it's contributing to the response you've got back. After all genocide is one crime we all know Saddam committed. Perhaps this is why you've got so many backs up.
I presume your PHD has something to do with this area. Perhaps you could state your sources properly. I would also be interested in how else you explain the huge decrease in the Jewish community in the war years, and what happened to the Polish and German jewish communities if they weren't killed.

You are quite right, the username and avatar is ironic and has no doubt contributed to my negative response here. Yes my PHD is in Eastern European History but i am particularly focusing on the Jewish populations of these regions. I will gladly reference my sources, but they are of course many and listing them here would take me ages! Perhaps the most interesting read is Culture of Critique by Prof. McDonald. He talks about Jewish mass emigration and subsequent rise to power in the American political and academic spheres.

I was originally looking into the dynamics of diaspora's of which arguably around the war years Jews were the greatest number. It is there that I stumbled upon a number of sources including the one mentioned above. David Irving is a good place to start and his books are available for free download on his website. Hitler's War is especially interesting.

 

[Paul Ranson]

Saddam, you have denied the holocaust, you haven't been libelled.

The two names you've brought up are both well-known deniers and associates of extreme right wing politics.

You might try and offer some evidence of either 'no mass killings in gas chambers' or '300000'.

Paul

 

[saddam]

Saddam, you have denied the holocaust, you haven't been libelled.

The two names you've brought up are both well-known deniers and associates of extreme right wing politics.

You might try and offer some evidence of either 'no mass killings in gas chambers' or '300000'.

Paul

My point is that there is no evidence either way! I cannot prove there werent gas deaths and i cannot prove there was. That is my whole point. I am not saying there were no mass killings, just that i have seen no evidence that proves there was.

 

[Saab]

David Irving is a good place to start?

don't be silly,his work has no academic validity at all,the man has no reputation left,nothing.
There is no argument,it happened,its why there isn't,and never has been,a serious debate in academia.Its just politically driven fanaticism,and is rightly ignored.

 

[saddam]

David Irving is a good place to start?

don't be silly,his work has no academic validity at all,the man has no reputation left,nothing.
There is no argument,it happened,its why there isn't,and never has been,a serious debate in academia.Its just politically driven fanaticism,and is rightly ignored.

He has no reputation anymore because he had the balls to challenge the view! He worked for 30 years in the German State libraries, that is 30 years of hard studying. As a PHD student I think that 1 year of study has taught me a hell of a lot so i respect anyone's word who has studied for 30.

 

[penance]

He worked for 30 years in the German State libraries, .

Hmmm

 

[Saab]

30 yrs studying what? His work has been trashed,full stop.He was/is a Nazi sympathizer,his opinion is a tad tainted don't you think?

Academia has its share of crack pots,phd or '30 years studying',its irrelevant,and I'm impressed by neither when it comes to this subject.Anyone studying with an open mind would come to only one conclusion.Irving studied for years to prove a flawed arguement,and subsequently ended up in the preverbial academic gutter

 

[7_V]

As a PHD student I think that 1 year of study has taught me a hell of a lot so i respect anyone's word who has studied for 30.

Judging by your postings above I have to say that if 1 year of study has taught you 'a hell of a lot' then your ignorance before must have been staggering.

Have you questioned why the Germans would have allowed such damning lies to continue for all these years? Why would they have built the receptors for gas cylinders in their death camps if no such gas chambers were used?

Can I ask which university would even consider awarding you a PHD for Eastern European history, particularly focusing on the Jewish populations, based on the unsubstantiated nonsense that you've been posting on this thread?

What is the nature of the 'research' that you've undertaken? Have you visited Germany and Eastern Europe as part of your studies? Have you visited Auschwitz? Have you interviewed ex-concentration camp guards or any of the victims who survived?

Or are your theories simply based on reading the works of discredited, anti-semitic Holocaust deniers?

Type 'Zycon' into Google and follow up some of the links. You should learn more in 20 minutes than your studies so far have taught you.

I don't see that you've received knee-jerk responses for posting such nonsense. If you had been a secondary school student I would have expected you to have received a (metaphorical) slap on the wrist from forum members and told to go off and study further before posting again. The fact that you're a PHD student and that this is your speciality is, frankly, mind-boggling.