Lt Cdr Data
om
come back lim-valve...all is forgiven
State of the industry...
- Thread starter Son of Sam
- Start date
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Well Sam, seeing as we have failed to reach your dizzy heights of intelliectual aweness & industry indepth greatness, then I'm gutted, and were all wasted on your self massaging talents sir, I bid thee good day 
Lt Cdr Data
om
actually sam, you think a little like myself, but what do you really want to see?
yes one the one hand, it is nice to look through rose tinted specs at the past and say how wonderful and nostalgic it was, but then again, a lot of it came out for
1. technological advancement for the sake of it..this goes on now.
2. the war effort...good come out of an evil? war even for a good cause is still regrettable, and causes wastes of life...the gerrys thought they were fighting for god and their country
3. profit...
yes the golden age has come and gone, technology gives us the means to churn out stuff that measures better than ever before in a short turnover...shades of MF....I think this is partly the reason we are less satisfied, we don't appreciate the effort and grind and expertise something has taken to design in the past...I am sure smaller and smaller technology is linked with taking things for granted...and the quantities it is available in...
tho' the hifi mags like any other are full of shit and a mouthpiece for the industry, as is the whole of the media, probably always has been, only we are just more aware of it now, some of us, anyway...
hifi is a bit of a geeky male insular thing..shut yourself away with a bit of music...true, the world is saturated with music which is shit and makes a travesty of such a wonderful discovery/invention that can be beautiful, again for profit...
partly right, that a big company can do a showpiece design costing 1000s, to get attention and kudos, like a big f off car....rich kids toys...doens't mean you get proportionally more joy out of it tho'...in that respect, a lot of good can come from independant people trying out something new, only there is nothing new under the sun...musical fidelity take note again...rehash, rehash...
this is the reality of the world, I would love it to be nicer mannered, 1930s friendliness, less commercial, unfortunately, its being driven along by forces noone really understands or can control, they just have a glimse, and its spinning ever faster....
the people on this forum are quite an intersting and enlightened bunch..you belittle them somewhat old boy..
phwew...I wonder if there are any more of those guru jobs going in california
I didn't make the world...I just try to live in it...
yes one the one hand, it is nice to look through rose tinted specs at the past and say how wonderful and nostalgic it was, but then again, a lot of it came out for
1. technological advancement for the sake of it..this goes on now.
2. the war effort...good come out of an evil? war even for a good cause is still regrettable, and causes wastes of life...the gerrys thought they were fighting for god and their country
3. profit...
yes the golden age has come and gone, technology gives us the means to churn out stuff that measures better than ever before in a short turnover...shades of MF....I think this is partly the reason we are less satisfied, we don't appreciate the effort and grind and expertise something has taken to design in the past...I am sure smaller and smaller technology is linked with taking things for granted...and the quantities it is available in...
tho' the hifi mags like any other are full of shit and a mouthpiece for the industry, as is the whole of the media, probably always has been, only we are just more aware of it now, some of us, anyway...
hifi is a bit of a geeky male insular thing..shut yourself away with a bit of music...true, the world is saturated with music which is shit and makes a travesty of such a wonderful discovery/invention that can be beautiful, again for profit...
partly right, that a big company can do a showpiece design costing 1000s, to get attention and kudos, like a big f off car....rich kids toys...doens't mean you get proportionally more joy out of it tho'...in that respect, a lot of good can come from independant people trying out something new, only there is nothing new under the sun...musical fidelity take note again...rehash, rehash...
this is the reality of the world, I would love it to be nicer mannered, 1930s friendliness, less commercial, unfortunately, its being driven along by forces noone really understands or can control, they just have a glimse, and its spinning ever faster....
the people on this forum are quite an intersting and enlightened bunch..you belittle them somewhat old boy..
phwew...I wonder if there are any more of those guru jobs going in california
I didn't make the world...I just try to live in it...
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been buying and using hi-fi for a few years and agree now is not such a good time - mark levinson closing a factory TAG moving to the shadows / most "mass"electronics manufacture going to China or the east.
Perhaps my ears are not as good as they were but now a trip to a dem room is pretty predictable - there's a lot of sameness if you aim for some thing between flat and round - although flat seem to be losing its 2 dimensionality with the latest from Naim... There des seem to be more marketing and repackaging etc
Perhaps my ears are not as good as they were but now a trip to a dem room is pretty predictable - there's a lot of sameness if you aim for some thing between flat and round - although flat seem to be losing its 2 dimensionality with the latest from Naim... There des seem to be more marketing and repackaging etc
Oh well thats the end of him then - I cant say I am sad to see him go. I dont really think what he said was the problem, in fact I did agree with quite a lot of his points, but it was the way he said it that got everyones back up. I dont think he gave the folks who post here anywhere near the credit they deserve.
Hint:- Perhaps you should take a look at your posting style.
Hint:- Perhaps you should take a look at your posting style.
Strange one this
Innovation, well it still exists, but it now seems more and more to revolve around technology, which means the big corporations are the only ones able to afford the development.
Take our different components. CD players long ago reached the stage where their performance level in absolute terms was limited not by the manufacturer but by the software itself. Innovation, yep SACD and DVDA. But again, large corps are behind it and the audiophile community treats it with suspicion and distain.
Amplifiers? Digital amps will be the next big thing IMO, but only with the input of the likes of Phillips and Sony. The development of the chips is costly in the extreme, so we have to wait for them before so called audio specialists can really make a difference.
I can't think of any other area that has not had constant development over the past 50 years or so. The curve simply has to have levelled off by now.
Faced with a lack of access to new technology and a lack of capitol to develop it, the smaller companies are tasked with searching for ever smaller incremental improvements to their products. They have to refresh their range to generate sales. Without sales, they cease to exist. If they cease to exist, so do their suppliers and the domino affect is endless. It's called the consumer society and SOS isn't going to change it.
You can of course opt out, taking this to an extreme you can go and live off the land and have no material posessions. The simple life. It's attractive in many ways, but hardly practical, and you'd have nothing to listen to your music on. in fact you'd have no music.
True breakthroughs in our industry are rare, but hindsight tends to clump them together giving the impression of continual quantum improvements. But look at the truly earth moving products of the past. Klipsehorn, Quad 57, Apogee ribbons, the first Krells, Linn LP12. They are all in the past, but the time between their launches is quite substantial. In fact maybe 10 products in 50 years.
The only change I can see is that any future mold breakers are unlikely to come from a small audio company, and will no doubt be the preserve of a large global corporation. That's not the failure of the hifi industry. That's the failure of the human race or the consequence of it insatiable desire to produce more products no one needs in the search for filthy lucre.
And if anyone is reading this, hooked up to the internet on their PC, listening to their system in the background, then they are as much to blame as anyone and cannot really complain.
All IMHO of course.
Innovation, well it still exists, but it now seems more and more to revolve around technology, which means the big corporations are the only ones able to afford the development.
Take our different components. CD players long ago reached the stage where their performance level in absolute terms was limited not by the manufacturer but by the software itself. Innovation, yep SACD and DVDA. But again, large corps are behind it and the audiophile community treats it with suspicion and distain.
Amplifiers? Digital amps will be the next big thing IMO, but only with the input of the likes of Phillips and Sony. The development of the chips is costly in the extreme, so we have to wait for them before so called audio specialists can really make a difference.
I can't think of any other area that has not had constant development over the past 50 years or so. The curve simply has to have levelled off by now.
Faced with a lack of access to new technology and a lack of capitol to develop it, the smaller companies are tasked with searching for ever smaller incremental improvements to their products. They have to refresh their range to generate sales. Without sales, they cease to exist. If they cease to exist, so do their suppliers and the domino affect is endless. It's called the consumer society and SOS isn't going to change it.
You can of course opt out, taking this to an extreme you can go and live off the land and have no material posessions. The simple life. It's attractive in many ways, but hardly practical, and you'd have nothing to listen to your music on. in fact you'd have no music.
True breakthroughs in our industry are rare, but hindsight tends to clump them together giving the impression of continual quantum improvements. But look at the truly earth moving products of the past. Klipsehorn, Quad 57, Apogee ribbons, the first Krells, Linn LP12. They are all in the past, but the time between their launches is quite substantial. In fact maybe 10 products in 50 years.
The only change I can see is that any future mold breakers are unlikely to come from a small audio company, and will no doubt be the preserve of a large global corporation. That's not the failure of the hifi industry. That's the failure of the human race or the consequence of it insatiable desire to produce more products no one needs in the search for filthy lucre.
And if anyone is reading this, hooked up to the internet on their PC, listening to their system in the background, then they are as much to blame as anyone and cannot really complain.
All IMHO of course.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
:duck: has he gone yet?
:beamup:
:beamup:
I demand to be told where one can live off the land, free from taxation, free from obligation other than to ones own alimentary canal. My flock of sheep are finding it a bit cramped under the stairs. Hell, even the bloody moon belongs to someone now.....
Lt Cdr Data
om
Yeah...the blooldy yanks have it...
Lt Cdr Data
om
in the unlikely instance sos is still watching...its not good manners to insult the forum, and then bugger off, because you dont' like what they say...
I will attempt to reply to a few points...
first of all, people are trained to criticise, ever since the days of aristotle, destrying an argument was meant to leave all that was left to be the good stuff....this unfortunate attitude is still prevalent...you see it everywhere...legal system, newspapers, everywhere...people can offer critiques, but few solutions...I am equally guilty, be a nicer world to focus on soving problems rather than blasting them in flames...
what do you want to see us do..build all are own equipment like yourself...?
"are, by and large, sold below-standard, over-priced products, "
partly right, basic cd players still generally cost a lot more than budget dvds, , which is a cd player+ all that audio decoding stuff, too...must be pricier...
partly the companies are out of ideas, little left to do, over priced, yes, when some pro-audio 250 watt amps cost 250 quid, and you pay that for a fifty watter...brand snobbery partly...partly the maker robbing people...
"feel somewhat troubled to say that I'm an audiophile today. 'high-end' and 'state-of-the-art' "
the average guy in the street would be aghast at what some people spend for a bit of music to listen to...crikey I have heard computer speakers called 'monitor speakers' as they sit by a monitor..a monitor speaker is either a high quality atc type accurate, or something on stage to hear yourself...eh hippy?
Terms get cannibalised by others trying to get in on the act...whoa..if these monitors cost £100 from richer sounds, that's great, monitors used to cost 1000s...
"That everything is a-okay, or that something isn't right"
that depends on your point of view and what you want to see...
"todays equipment would simply CREAM equipment from 20, 30, even 40 years ago, which blatantly isn't true"
quite correct, its all bollux to pander to the sun reading mentality, just to make entertaining reading to those who know no better...people here know that though...its the mob on the streets, things haven't changed since gladiator...england is the mob...
"I think most people are in denial "
the state of thinking of a person is a ver complex mixture of upbriging, inherent genetics, stuff they are exposed to , experiences, god knows what....most people don't care...they think they are free thinking, I am influenced subliminally by adverts...they onlly have this stuff in the shops, see an ad, and buy their idea of what they like , maybe based on a crap biased review, word of mouth, salemans crap, we as consumers are limited by what is out there, how easy it is to get, the prority it is...hi end audio is not a prority for most people, its just not an issue...
"If that information is controlled and/or distorted (as it most definitely is in hifi) then that means people actively have to seek out the info they need to make an informed choice, "
it is in lots of other things...people are slowly becoming aware, some anyway, most haven' the time or inclination to research...it has been this way for a LONG time...
"exploitation takes place, exploitation of something I assume we all love" that's the state of the planet, and its not going to change..unfortunate, but true..if you can't beat em, join em...
"they need to spend MORE money as a solution"
true, you CAN get what you pay for, after all, if someone is an 'expert', why not take their word...trouble is, the engineers design to specs. and we are this specs. and flashing lights impressed culture....and when you have paid the most...it MUST be the best...denial, denial?
"80s and 90s really brought around VERY significant changes in ownership " the thatcher years and advent of the yuppie where things bring status, and having a good looking hifi and other bits for the looks means you have kudos...stupid monkey mentality...belongs back in the jungle...its old instincts...but yes, companies became more targeted with greater insight of marketing and psychological strategies...
"some say it is on it's last legs" suppose it is, av has stole the show, along with computers, downloading, ....we need a revolution, maybe its a good thing....
we are a tiny minority, the mags would go bust if it wasn't for them...maybe not a bad thing...
"The cream DOES NOT rise to the top" sometimes does, sometimes doesn't...difficult in this controlled market place, but you can understand punters...why buy some back street guy when you can get something with the backup of naim or similar with a pedigree..
".spending more and more and getting only a tiny increase" true, maybe the 'quality' is so good now, its almost as good as it will ever be...also, maybe partly it costs so much to get a small betterment, then again, yes, the old stuff was good...you are trying to do it smaller, more energy efficient, more reliable, lighter, sexier looking,
"Most people really do seem to WANT to continue this cycle of constant expenditure"..gets like a drug...we do get the urge to better ourselves..partly for getting bored, as a result of next years better looking thing, partly for natural betterment, and it has a strage compulsive effect...
I will finish there, as I am not sure the point of writing more...if you are watching, set down exactly what you want to see here and go and do it....not all think the same way, and we are a minority, in the end, bills do have to be paid, sad but true...
I will attempt to reply to a few points...
first of all, people are trained to criticise, ever since the days of aristotle, destrying an argument was meant to leave all that was left to be the good stuff....this unfortunate attitude is still prevalent...you see it everywhere...legal system, newspapers, everywhere...people can offer critiques, but few solutions...I am equally guilty, be a nicer world to focus on soving problems rather than blasting them in flames...
what do you want to see us do..build all are own equipment like yourself...?
"are, by and large, sold below-standard, over-priced products, "
partly right, basic cd players still generally cost a lot more than budget dvds, , which is a cd player+ all that audio decoding stuff, too...must be pricier...
partly the companies are out of ideas, little left to do, over priced, yes, when some pro-audio 250 watt amps cost 250 quid, and you pay that for a fifty watter...brand snobbery partly...partly the maker robbing people...
"feel somewhat troubled to say that I'm an audiophile today. 'high-end' and 'state-of-the-art' "
the average guy in the street would be aghast at what some people spend for a bit of music to listen to...crikey I have heard computer speakers called 'monitor speakers' as they sit by a monitor..a monitor speaker is either a high quality atc type accurate, or something on stage to hear yourself...eh hippy?
Terms get cannibalised by others trying to get in on the act...whoa..if these monitors cost £100 from richer sounds, that's great, monitors used to cost 1000s...
"That everything is a-okay, or that something isn't right"
that depends on your point of view and what you want to see...
"todays equipment would simply CREAM equipment from 20, 30, even 40 years ago, which blatantly isn't true"
quite correct, its all bollux to pander to the sun reading mentality, just to make entertaining reading to those who know no better...people here know that though...its the mob on the streets, things haven't changed since gladiator...england is the mob...
"I think most people are in denial "
the state of thinking of a person is a ver complex mixture of upbriging, inherent genetics, stuff they are exposed to , experiences, god knows what....most people don't care...they think they are free thinking, I am influenced subliminally by adverts...they onlly have this stuff in the shops, see an ad, and buy their idea of what they like , maybe based on a crap biased review, word of mouth, salemans crap, we as consumers are limited by what is out there, how easy it is to get, the prority it is...hi end audio is not a prority for most people, its just not an issue...
"If that information is controlled and/or distorted (as it most definitely is in hifi) then that means people actively have to seek out the info they need to make an informed choice, "
it is in lots of other things...people are slowly becoming aware, some anyway, most haven' the time or inclination to research...it has been this way for a LONG time...
"exploitation takes place, exploitation of something I assume we all love" that's the state of the planet, and its not going to change..unfortunate, but true..if you can't beat em, join em...
"they need to spend MORE money as a solution"
true, you CAN get what you pay for, after all, if someone is an 'expert', why not take their word...trouble is, the engineers design to specs. and we are this specs. and flashing lights impressed culture....and when you have paid the most...it MUST be the best...denial, denial?
"80s and 90s really brought around VERY significant changes in ownership " the thatcher years and advent of the yuppie where things bring status, and having a good looking hifi and other bits for the looks means you have kudos...stupid monkey mentality...belongs back in the jungle...its old instincts...but yes, companies became more targeted with greater insight of marketing and psychological strategies...
"some say it is on it's last legs" suppose it is, av has stole the show, along with computers, downloading, ....we need a revolution, maybe its a good thing....
we are a tiny minority, the mags would go bust if it wasn't for them...maybe not a bad thing...
"The cream DOES NOT rise to the top" sometimes does, sometimes doesn't...difficult in this controlled market place, but you can understand punters...why buy some back street guy when you can get something with the backup of naim or similar with a pedigree..
".spending more and more and getting only a tiny increase" true, maybe the 'quality' is so good now, its almost as good as it will ever be...also, maybe partly it costs so much to get a small betterment, then again, yes, the old stuff was good...you are trying to do it smaller, more energy efficient, more reliable, lighter, sexier looking,
"Most people really do seem to WANT to continue this cycle of constant expenditure"..gets like a drug...we do get the urge to better ourselves..partly for getting bored, as a result of next years better looking thing, partly for natural betterment, and it has a strage compulsive effect...
I will finish there, as I am not sure the point of writing more...if you are watching, set down exactly what you want to see here and go and do it....not all think the same way, and we are a minority, in the end, bills do have to be paid, sad but true...
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
The LP12 was earth moving in its marketing. Basically a copy of the Thorens TD150 and AR turntables, it was arguably of a slightly higher quality build. The only earth moving aspect was the superb marketing of Ivor T - probably the most hyped hi-fi product in history.
To compare this copy with the Klipshorn, ESL 57 or Apogee, is to insult some truly great designers.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
More marketing hype, this time swallowed by a visitor who came to warn us about marketing hype.
There is nowt wrong with MDF as a base material for speaker enclosures.
For the record, the new piano-lacquered black versions of my speakers have an external skin of marine ply. This is only because the people who do the lacquering tell me that the veneer is too thin to lacquer on to. The acoustic difference between the MDF/veneer/sealer-varnish and the MDF/marine ply/lacquer versions has yet to be tested. I doubt that it will be much if it's audible.
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wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Have you guys considered that SoS was an Ex-Tag employee, slightly disgruntled at his beloved Udo's little speach he gave last week 
who was more than slightly miffed at being given the heave-ho not so long ago?
And now is exacting revenge by to to accurately guesstimating the state of the industry (By trawling fora) for his cunning plan plan to oust Udo from the pile, by *&*(*&)()^)*&)^ you fill in the blanks
Or I could have been at the pop Wm
who was more than slightly miffed at being given the heave-ho not so long ago?And now is exacting revenge by to to accurately guesstimating the state of the industry (By trawling fora) for his cunning plan plan to oust Udo from the pile, by *&*(*&)()^)*&)^ you fill in the blanks
Or I could have been at the pop
Wm
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penance
Arrogant Cock
erm
MDF is way more stable than wood, not as affected by moisture and atmospheric change as natural wood. Infact, the only bad thing is the carconogenic dust produced from working it.
I think SOS has swallowed some marketing BS
MDF is way more stable than wood, not as affected by moisture and atmospheric change as natural wood. Infact, the only bad thing is the carconogenic dust produced from working it.
I think SOS has swallowed some marketing BS
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
That's amazing. Beat you by 3 minutes.
I trust you're having a good day, w-m.
penance
Arrogant Cock
Story of my life mate
joel
Shaman of Signals
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Don't post here often, but this is ridiculous.
It's this SoS guy who knows F-all about speakers - he should try talking with some people with experience in the area...
MDF is an excellent material for speakers. The reason it's looked down upon by much of the so-called high end is that it's cheap and mass-producable (the consistancy of MDF is one of the reasons it is such a good material for the production of stereo speakers).
The "high end" makers know that if something isn't of cryogenetically treated Unobtanium, they won't be able to flog it to the sad plonkers who constitute their clientele.
Hence the continuous bullshit on things like MDF and gold plated knobs
I agree with Merlin, it is basically the bigboys who have the technical resources to push the game on.
I heard some Sharp amplifiers and CDPs yesterday which were seriously good... Non BS people, too. They are having a hard time with the illogical, fantasist world of audio.
Lt Cdr Data
om
reason mdf is looked down on I think is energy storage..it vibrates...:slayer:
Probably because MDF was made famous by Handy Andy and the Changing Rooms team as well.
penance
Arrogant Cock
spot on!
