wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
Robbo he doesn't, maybe UE could help us with this one
State of the industry...
- Thread starter Son of Sam
- Start date
Robbo he doesn't, maybe UE could help us with this one
I know, thats why I asked the question!
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Okay, to get this one out of the way:
I have a custom-build turntable with modified SME309 tonearm, Dynavector Karat 17D2MkII cartridge, custom-build valve-preamp, custom-build push-pull valve monoblocks, custom-build transmission line speakers, custom-build rack, and all mains and signal cabling is Experience Filtration.
I have a custom-build turntable with modified SME309 tonearm, Dynavector Karat 17D2MkII cartridge, custom-build valve-preamp, custom-build push-pull valve monoblocks, custom-build transmission line speakers, custom-build rack, and all mains and signal cabling is Experience Filtration.
Sam,
As you are not a 'bikerless biker' as I thought you may have been, Are the custom components in your system made to your design? It looks quite an interesting system.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Mind you, even if Son of Sam was 'between systems' at this time, I don't see why he couldn't still give his views on the state of the industry. I've been there myself (came back from a year in Paris sans hi-fi).
It would be understandable if SOS was a little miffed by being pushed to list his system as it's not especially relevant to his argument.
The system does look interesting. With everything custom-built, I'm surprised you didn't custom build the cables too?
It would be understandable if SOS was a little miffed by being pushed to list his system as it's not especially relevant to his argument.
The system does look interesting. With everything custom-built, I'm surprised you didn't custom build the cables too?
Steve,
I take you point, but I was a little miffed by SOS's comment below
He seems to be making equally sweeping judgements about the posters on this forum without taking any time to get to know the people here.
Thats why I thought (think?) he is just here to troll. Sam, please prove me wrong!
I take you point, but I was a little miffed by SOS's comment below
He seems to be making equally sweeping judgements about the posters on this forum without taking any time to get to know the people here.
Thats why I thought (think?) he is just here to troll. Sam, please prove me wrong!
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
Well, you do have a point there. The great thing about ZG is that it contains a varied assortment of hi-fi nuts and raisins that stand (well, mostly stagger) in direct antithesis to the concerns that he expresses about the industry in general.
We're nobody's mugs.
Robbo has a point Sam. There may be some problems with the industry (like most industries) but you might find that the forum is one of the cures.
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Okay, to answer a few questions.
1. My system was not built by me, but by a chap I know who has 25 years experience of building hifi and as an electrical engineer.
2. I'm am not pointing the finger at any of you directly, nor am I intending what I say to be a slur on anybody's character. However, I have argued this point many, many times before with 'audiophiles' and the responses are, I have to say, a little predictable. I posted here because I thought I may get some constructive arguments, but it seems that the initial reaction for many people is to go on the defensive, either about your own personal involvement in hifi (not what I'm attacking), or about the industry 'not being as bad as all that' (which I am attacking).
All my initial post does is ask for a discussion about this topic - like I said, I'm not pointing the finger at any of you, I just want to gauge how people think and FEEL about this. I'm deeply passionate about music (and I also make music), so it pisses me off to see YET ANOTHER industry where exploitation takes place, exploitation of something I assume we all love. That makes me angry. Yes, there are plenty of informed, independent people here (which is part of the reason for me signing up), but you must admit, most of hifidom is populated by people who DO read the mags, who DO believe what they're told by journos and dealers, and DO buy the products, only to get bored/fatigued with them after a couple of years, and feel that the problem is that they need to spend MORE money as a solution. I was like this, and many people I know were/are like this - and we've all read about a lot of other people like this. Evidently there is a problem with people being misled and products being either substandard or not progressing (even regressing) in quality, although we are told otherwise by all with a financial concern.
This angers me all the more because hifi didn't used to be like this. Yes, it has always been a business, but the 80s and 90s really brought around VERY significant changes in ownership (of the industry), perspectives and attitudes, formats, advertising, dealers and so on. All of this has culminated in a rather stagnant industry - some say it is on it's last legs, especially the highend - which is incredibly short-sighted and short-term profit oriented. If we love music and our hifis so much, then surely this should make us angry because it WILL have long-term consequences and that affects all of us.
1. My system was not built by me, but by a chap I know who has 25 years experience of building hifi and as an electrical engineer.
2. I'm am not pointing the finger at any of you directly, nor am I intending what I say to be a slur on anybody's character. However, I have argued this point many, many times before with 'audiophiles' and the responses are, I have to say, a little predictable. I posted here because I thought I may get some constructive arguments, but it seems that the initial reaction for many people is to go on the defensive, either about your own personal involvement in hifi (not what I'm attacking), or about the industry 'not being as bad as all that' (which I am attacking).
All my initial post does is ask for a discussion about this topic - like I said, I'm not pointing the finger at any of you, I just want to gauge how people think and FEEL about this. I'm deeply passionate about music (and I also make music), so it pisses me off to see YET ANOTHER industry where exploitation takes place, exploitation of something I assume we all love. That makes me angry. Yes, there are plenty of informed, independent people here (which is part of the reason for me signing up), but you must admit, most of hifidom is populated by people who DO read the mags, who DO believe what they're told by journos and dealers, and DO buy the products, only to get bored/fatigued with them after a couple of years, and feel that the problem is that they need to spend MORE money as a solution. I was like this, and many people I know were/are like this - and we've all read about a lot of other people like this. Evidently there is a problem with people being misled and products being either substandard or not progressing (even regressing) in quality, although we are told otherwise by all with a financial concern.
This angers me all the more because hifi didn't used to be like this. Yes, it has always been a business, but the 80s and 90s really brought around VERY significant changes in ownership (of the industry), perspectives and attitudes, formats, advertising, dealers and so on. All of this has culminated in a rather stagnant industry - some say it is on it's last legs, especially the highend - which is incredibly short-sighted and short-term profit oriented. If we love music and our hifis so much, then surely this should make us angry because it WILL have long-term consequences and that affects all of us.
sideshowbob
Trisha
I think you're guilty of mythologising the past. The hi-fi industry has always been profit-oriented, and the true enthusiast companies have always been a distinct minority (not surprisingly, they often go bust).
The "high-end" is stagnant because high quality two-channel audio is increasingly even more of a minority interest than it was in the past. This also partly explains why it has become so much more expensive, high-end companies don't have as large a market as they used to, and up their prices to reflect that. It's even more a luxury business than it ever was.
Having said that, the second hand market is thriving, largely due to Internet trading, and it's possible to build an excellent system for not much money with some smart second hand buying.
Stating all this doesn't make me apathetic, just realistic. If you want to change the world, the hi-fi business isn't the place to start.
-- Ian
The "high-end" is stagnant because high quality two-channel audio is increasingly even more of a minority interest than it was in the past. This also partly explains why it has become so much more expensive, high-end companies don't have as large a market as they used to, and up their prices to reflect that. It's even more a luxury business than it ever was.
Having said that, the second hand market is thriving, largely due to Internet trading, and it's possible to build an excellent system for not much money with some smart second hand buying.
Stating all this doesn't make me apathetic, just realistic. If you want to change the world, the hi-fi business isn't the place to start.
-- Ian
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
We each do our thing SoS, both individually and on the forums. Some of us do it commercially and some privately.
We're not going to overly influence the large corporates.
If you look at the history of hi-fi before the late seventies, you'll see that all the companies that we look back on with admiration and nostalgia (and rightly so) were led or mainly influenced by one strong individual - Peter Walker, Harold Leak, Ted Jordan, Gilbert Briggs, etc.
That situation pertains today. I don't believe that any great designs come out of corporate committees; they come from enthusiatic individuals. One difficulty, as you've rightly observed, is that these individuals don't necessarily get the weight and coverage in the media that they deserve (I'm an exception here. My company gets more than it deserves).
If there are two lessons to be learnt and preached, they are "Beware large organisations bearing expensive products" and "Trust your own ears first".
The cream will rise to the top. Keep the faith.
We're not going to overly influence the large corporates.
If you look at the history of hi-fi before the late seventies, you'll see that all the companies that we look back on with admiration and nostalgia (and rightly so) were led or mainly influenced by one strong individual - Peter Walker, Harold Leak, Ted Jordan, Gilbert Briggs, etc.
That situation pertains today. I don't believe that any great designs come out of corporate committees; they come from enthusiatic individuals. One difficulty, as you've rightly observed, is that these individuals don't necessarily get the weight and coverage in the media that they deserve (I'm an exception here. My company gets more than it deserves
).If there are two lessons to be learnt and preached, they are "Beware large organisations bearing expensive products" and "Trust your own ears first".
The cream will rise to the top. Keep the faith.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
If you want to change the world, you start from where you are.
MO!
MOnkey`ead!
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I think the defensive comes from being called fence sitters and chickenshit
As you'll find (and are finding), members here tend to know the score. Use all available sources to let you know what's there and then ultimately trust your own ears.
What you say about lack of originality and progress is the MOre concerning issue here IMO. But on my level at least, things seem ok. I've got infinate kit out there available to me (both old and new), should I feel the need for a change. Upgrading isn't just about being disapointed with your kit. I'm reasonably happy with my set up considering room and budget restraints, but i'd gladly spend another few K on it if I had the MOney available with no other priorities. There's always something to *improve*
I think the worst thing about the cynicism in the industry is (much like, as you pointed out in the music industry), is that some outfits just can't get a brake. Whether that be they truly believe in a design and can't source funds to MOve it beyond their garage/shed, or whether they've managed to get a product built(perhaps a great personal sacrifice), but they can't get the brake needed to get it into the relevent media, outlets, and such to actually shift the product.
MO
As you'll find (and are finding), members here tend to know the score. Use all available sources to let you know what's there and then ultimately trust your own ears.
What you say about lack of originality and progress is the MOre concerning issue here IMO. But on my level at least, things seem ok. I've got infinate kit out there available to me (both old and new), should I feel the need for a change. Upgrading isn't just about being disapointed with your kit. I'm reasonably happy with my set up considering room and budget restraints, but i'd gladly spend another few K on it if I had the MOney available with no other priorities. There's always something to *improve*
I think the worst thing about the cynicism in the industry is (much like, as you pointed out in the music industry), is that some outfits just can't get a brake. Whether that be they truly believe in a design and can't source funds to MOve it beyond their garage/shed, or whether they've managed to get a product built(perhaps a great personal sacrifice), but they can't get the brake needed to get it into the relevent media, outlets, and such to actually shift the product.
MO
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Okay sideshowbob, let's accept that I AM mythologising the past - you have still ignored what I have said about the vast and significant changes which have take place over the last two decades to exaggerate the situation as it once was in bringing us to the state we are in today. This is reflected in the mentality of companies and the mentality of the consumer today.
High-end is stagnant because it is a minority interest? Rubbish. Look at the LP - dead or stagnant because CD lead it to become a minority interest? No, the LP is in rude health today and turntable quality is better than ever, yet it has a smaller market than ever - the constant increase in vinyl and turntable quality has lead to a resurgance in LP buying and interest. I don't see this happening with the high-end, because it has nothing to directly compete with it. Without competition, stagnation will occur.
Why is the 2nd-hand market thriving? People are so happy with their purchases that they sell them every 18 months? It is these sort of purchasing habits that tells me something must be wrong with the overall quality and direction of the hifi industry.
What large corporates are you talking about 7_V? Even the largest specialist hifi companies are relative small fry in todays world. All they have (and this is a large part of my point) is a CORPORATE MENTALITY. The corporate mentality has NOTHING to do with the individual. Where are todays great designs then? Most of the true innovation has already happened and most people simply regurgitate. The cream DOES NOT rise to the top, that's why I am debating this subject! Mediocrity has become standard and most people accept it.
I think the problem here MO is that members THINK they know the score. I haven't read ONE post which manages to disprove anything I'm saying, even though I've met with such opposition - replies seem to be, 'I know but who cares', or 'It isn't that bad' or, 'I know but I'm so well informed that I make all the right choices'. Isn't it odd that not ONE person has either 1) Agreed with me or, 2) Taken on board what I've said and genuinely considered whether it is true or not and what the wider implications are - most replies are merely hifi rhetoric.
Buying the kit itself isn't what I'm debating here, it is only the end result. Spending a lot of money on something such as hifi, as many here do, should be something of a long term, if not at least a mid-term purchase. I know very few people who keep hifi components for longer than 3 or 4 years. Years ago when I was part of the hifi cycle, I found myself buying new kit every 2 years or so, and saw myself continuing this routine indefinitely, with only gradual improvements with each upgrade, sometimes costing twice the price of the replaced component. This struck me as very wrong, especially in an industry which seemingly prides itself on development, technological superiority, high quality and high individual standards, and a press that enforces this perception. Hence my decision to partly move 'outside' the industry and get my hifi custom-built. I'm happy now and in all honesty this is the hifi I want to, and can, live with for the rest of my life. That I find extremely unusual, even the INTENT to do this. Most people really do seem to WANT to continue this cycle of constant expenditure, simply changing or slightly improving the sound each time they 'upgrade'. This is constantly what the industry and press is telling us to do, so when most people ARE doing it, I simply don't buy the assertation that most audiophiles exert a great deal of independence in how they listen and what and how often they buy.
High-end is stagnant because it is a minority interest? Rubbish. Look at the LP - dead or stagnant because CD lead it to become a minority interest? No, the LP is in rude health today and turntable quality is better than ever, yet it has a smaller market than ever - the constant increase in vinyl and turntable quality has lead to a resurgance in LP buying and interest. I don't see this happening with the high-end, because it has nothing to directly compete with it. Without competition, stagnation will occur.
Why is the 2nd-hand market thriving? People are so happy with their purchases that they sell them every 18 months? It is these sort of purchasing habits that tells me something must be wrong with the overall quality and direction of the hifi industry.
What large corporates are you talking about 7_V? Even the largest specialist hifi companies are relative small fry in todays world. All they have (and this is a large part of my point) is a CORPORATE MENTALITY. The corporate mentality has NOTHING to do with the individual. Where are todays great designs then? Most of the true innovation has already happened and most people simply regurgitate. The cream DOES NOT rise to the top, that's why I am debating this subject! Mediocrity has become standard and most people accept it.
I think the problem here MO is that members THINK they know the score. I haven't read ONE post which manages to disprove anything I'm saying, even though I've met with such opposition - replies seem to be, 'I know but who cares', or 'It isn't that bad' or, 'I know but I'm so well informed that I make all the right choices'. Isn't it odd that not ONE person has either 1) Agreed with me or, 2) Taken on board what I've said and genuinely considered whether it is true or not and what the wider implications are - most replies are merely hifi rhetoric.
Buying the kit itself isn't what I'm debating here, it is only the end result. Spending a lot of money on something such as hifi, as many here do, should be something of a long term, if not at least a mid-term purchase. I know very few people who keep hifi components for longer than 3 or 4 years. Years ago when I was part of the hifi cycle, I found myself buying new kit every 2 years or so, and saw myself continuing this routine indefinitely, with only gradual improvements with each upgrade, sometimes costing twice the price of the replaced component. This struck me as very wrong, especially in an industry which seemingly prides itself on development, technological superiority, high quality and high individual standards, and a press that enforces this perception. Hence my decision to partly move 'outside' the industry and get my hifi custom-built. I'm happy now and in all honesty this is the hifi I want to, and can, live with for the rest of my life. That I find extremely unusual, even the INTENT to do this. Most people really do seem to WANT to continue this cycle of constant expenditure, simply changing or slightly improving the sound each time they 'upgrade'. This is constantly what the industry and press is telling us to do, so when most people ARE doing it, I simply don't buy the assertation that most audiophiles exert a great deal of independence in how they listen and what and how often they buy.
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sideshowbob
Trisha
I haven't ignored what you said about "vast changes", I've pointed out that I think you're exaggerating the scale of those changes.
I regard vinyl as my primary source and have a very good analogue setup. This is a distinctly minority pursuit compared to AV, or video games, or TV. CD is rapidly becoming a minority pursuit as well, certainly amongst the young.
As to (1), nobody is obliged to agree with you, or me, or anybody else. Perhaps you haven't put a convincing case. As to (2), I have considered whether what you're saying is true, and have explained why I think, on the whole, it isn't. This is known as "having a dialogue". If you want to adopt a haranguing tone and assume other people don't share your worthy independence of mind and intelligence just because they don't agree with you, that's your problem.
-- Ian
I regard vinyl as my primary source and have a very good analogue setup. This is a distinctly minority pursuit compared to AV, or video games, or TV. CD is rapidly becoming a minority pursuit as well, certainly amongst the young.
As to (1), nobody is obliged to agree with you, or me, or anybody else. Perhaps you haven't put a convincing case. As to (2), I have considered whether what you're saying is true, and have explained why I think, on the whole, it isn't. This is known as "having a dialogue". If you want to adopt a haranguing tone and assume other people don't share your worthy independence of mind and intelligence just because they don't agree with you, that's your problem.
-- Ian
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I do
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
[
High-end is stagnant because it is a minority interest? Rubbish. Look at the LP - dead or stagnant because CD lead it to become a minority interest? No, the LP is in rude health today and turntable quality is better than ever, yet it has a smaller market than ever - the constant increase in vinyl and turntable quality has lead to a resurgance in LP buying and interest. I don't see this happening with the high-end, because it has nothing to directly compete with it. Without competition, stagnation will occur.
NO. Vinyl has shown a resurgance because of DJ's using the media. Hifi stores selling vinyl/tt's are a very small part of the picture, as are second hand vinyl shops.
What large corporates are you talking about 7_V? Even the largest specialist hifi companies are relative small fry in todays world. All they have (and this is a large part of my point) is a CORPORATE MENTALITY.
Steve IS a specialist hifi manufacturer, and he is a very down to earth character. I know about 3 other specialist hifi manufacturers - as you say a lot of this is cottage industry - and I dont see this corporate attitude you're talking about coming from them.
I think the problem here MO is that members THINK they know the score.
I must admit I dont like the suggestion that forum members here are slaves to clandestine marketing plans. Credit them with more intelligence ! For me personally - -I think I know the score because of a degree in marketing & advertising and employment history in magazine advertising ! ! how about u?
High-end is stagnant because it is a minority interest? Rubbish. Look at the LP - dead or stagnant because CD lead it to become a minority interest? No, the LP is in rude health today and turntable quality is better than ever, yet it has a smaller market than ever - the constant increase in vinyl and turntable quality has lead to a resurgance in LP buying and interest. I don't see this happening with the high-end, because it has nothing to directly compete with it. Without competition, stagnation will occur.
NO. Vinyl has shown a resurgance because of DJ's using the media. Hifi stores selling vinyl/tt's are a very small part of the picture, as are second hand vinyl shops.
What large corporates are you talking about 7_V? Even the largest specialist hifi companies are relative small fry in todays world. All they have (and this is a large part of my point) is a CORPORATE MENTALITY.
Steve IS a specialist hifi manufacturer, and he is a very down to earth character. I know about 3 other specialist hifi manufacturers - as you say a lot of this is cottage industry - and I dont see this corporate attitude you're talking about coming from them.
I think the problem here MO is that members THINK they know the score.
I must admit I dont like the suggestion that forum members here are slaves to clandestine marketing plans. Credit them with more intelligence ! For me personally - -I think I know the score because of a degree in marketing & advertising and employment history in magazine advertising ! ! how about u?
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
SOS, cut the Bull, drop the shields, and tell us why you really are so hang up about this ?
Lots of comapanies are suffering, maybe down to them not adapting to 'flexible market place', TT's are on the way up (we know), but to a smaller section of the 'overall pie', yep I'd go with that, Hi-end? well always a tuffie, as generaly the guys who buy this gear, have the funds anyway, just merely a 'getting them to the till' exercise, cynical maybe, however more than a hint of truth.
Biggest market in Audio at the moment is A/V, sorry to say, but it's people moving boxes in the Home Cinema market, that are dictating the 'ball park' at the mo, at least for a lot of the major players anyway.
Besides, the public have grey matter when purchasing, it's up to them if they use it when doing so, why worry. Wm
Lots of comapanies are suffering, maybe down to them not adapting to 'flexible market place', TT's are on the way up (we know), but to a smaller section of the 'overall pie', yep I'd go with that, Hi-end? well always a tuffie, as generaly the guys who buy this gear, have the funds anyway, just merely a 'getting them to the till' exercise, cynical maybe, however more than a hint of truth.
Biggest market in Audio at the moment is A/V, sorry to say, but it's people moving boxes in the Home Cinema market, that are dictating the 'ball park' at the mo, at least for a lot of the major players anyway.
Besides, the public have grey matter when purchasing, it's up to them if they use it when doing so, why worry. Wm
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
If they've got a corporate mentality they are, to all intents and purposes, corporations.
I don't accept medicrity and I don't know anyone here who does. As for there being no innovation, if this ain't innovation then what the f**k is?
I'm not sure that you've read any of the posts at all. It's very difficult to have a discussion with someone who only listens to himself.
I'm delighted that you've 'moved outside the industry' and are happy with your kit. If you read as much as you wrote on this forum you might realize that nearly everyone else here is in the same boat.
You seem to have an issue with responsibility. We're all responsible for how much we buy and how much hype we swallow. What's wrong with that?
Anyway, I'm not swallowing any more of this thread. It's become very boring. Bye bye.
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I've posted on a number of other forums and I'm depressed that I hear EXACTLY the same thing wherever I go. I read PLENTY of threads on this forum before signing on, and assumed you guys may be different. I say something different, or perhaps just take what some others say to an extreme, and I get a universally negative response. Of course WM, I must be bullshitting because what I've said has been universally disagreed with. Clandestine marketing plans? Where did you conjure that one from bottleneck?? Fair enough - I see that this forum is not a place where I really want to stay, or where my views are even welcome, so this will be my last post.
One last thing though, and this encapsulates my argument somewhat. 7_V provides a link to a speaker he thinks is 'innovative'. If you knew anything about speakers, you'd know that one built from MDF is actually a large step backwards, and an acceptance of a mediocre speaker building material. Add this to the fact that you are, I presume, a manufacturer (or represent one), and your arguments become very tainted indeed because you have a financial motivation. This goes for a number of other posters who I understand are dealers or manufacturers.
One last thing though, and this encapsulates my argument somewhat. 7_V provides a link to a speaker he thinks is 'innovative'. If you knew anything about speakers, you'd know that one built from MDF is actually a large step backwards, and an acceptance of a mediocre speaker building material. Add this to the fact that you are, I presume, a manufacturer (or represent one), and your arguments become very tainted indeed because you have a financial motivation. This goes for a number of other posters who I understand are dealers or manufacturers.
