Subjectivists vs. Objectivists - a roadmap for peace

Two words "Empirical evidence" - It doesn't matter how it works as long as it can be proven to work. Without empirical evidence it's simply "snake oil"

Hence I take a dim view of any manufacturer quoting psudo science and then failing to back up their claims with hard evidence.

For those who find that "snake oil" makes a marked improvement on their systems I say great, go for it. But, I cannot justify making expensive purchases based on subjective, anecdotal hearsay.

Just my 2p
 
Originally posted by Slaphead
Two words "Empirical evidence" - It doesn't matter how it works as long as it can be proven to work ...

... For those who find that "snake oil" makes a marked improvement on their systems I say great, go for it. But, I cannot justify making expensive purchases based on subjective, anecdotal hearsay.

Just my 2p
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I'll take your 2p and give you 1p change, if I may.

How can a piece of equipment be 'proven to work' in your system?

How did you actually decide what kit to buy and what precisely is it that justifies your purchases?
 
In my opinion we have to consider the language that we use in expressing our opinions.

for example....

'turntables sound better than CD players'
instead..
'I prefer the sound of my turntable to my cd player'

or..
' power cables all sound the same, dont waste your money'
why not..
'Ive tried 3 power cables on my cd player, and they all sounded the same. Id reccomend trying them from companies with a 30 day return policy'


This sounds obvious and a little pedantic, but its amazing the power of little words like 'in my opinion' and 'I prefer'.

Stepping away from the expression of opinion as fact , and instead expressing opinion as your own opinion and nothing more is the way to avoid escalating conflict IMO.

NB
Yes, I think some people did kind of 'home in' on Mike too much, but in turn perhaps the opinion based on experience was expressed too factually? I cant be the arbiter on that, but I think both statements are true.

Chris
 
Originally posted by Slaphead
Two words "Empirical evidence" - It doesn't matter how it works as long as it can be proven to work. Without empirical evidence it's simply "snake oil"
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This is another good common sense.
7_V what you are asking is a totally different issue.


Originally posted by bottleneck
This sounds obvious and a little pedantic, but its amazing the power of little words like 'in my opinion' and 'I prefer'.
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Certainly very very pedantic. However, it seems some people seems to have a big problem in understanding that every time people like me says, did you come to this conclusion after DBT or not? is interpreted as INSULTING their golden ear ability. :confused: It is not!

I will try to be more careful.
 
Originally posted by wolfgang


Certainly very very pedantic. However, it seems some people seems to have a big problem in understanding that every time people like me says, did you come to this conclusion after DBT or not? is interpreted as INSULTING their golden ear ability. :confused: It is not!

I will try to be more careful.
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Woofie, if I didn't you better I'd say that was very patronising, and most unfair, prehaps you should enlight us into the world of woofie, what you relastionship is with DBT, did you purchase your whole system in this fashion, what did you dbt against, how and why, this I find fasincinating. In essence so we can assertain your true desire of "My interest is to try to find which are the manufacturers that actually take R&D seriously and understood how to separate real from imagined improvements"
Prehaps also a in depth study of cable manufacturers across the board, compile a data base, a statisical process controll module, cross refernce all those basing their finding soley on DBT ?
Personally I would find this most illuminating and enjoyable, whaddya say woofie.
 
Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
dead serious mate, pyschaitric ones in particular
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In that case, you really are asking the impossible - understanding copper and silver wire and how they conduct electricity is a piece of cake compared to what goes on inside our heads. We know a lot, but we don't know the whole story by far, and because we're all individuals, what works in 99% of cases may not work in that last 1%.

To a certain extent, it depends on how deeply you want "how" to go. For example, a drug may inhibit the working of a particular enzyme or repress the production of a particular body chemical, and therefore bring about a perceived improvement in a patient's condition in which that enzyme or that chemical is perceived to cause the condition. However, you can never be completely sure that it won't do something else. Massively expensive clinical trials can clear most drugs of undesirable effects, but you may not get everything. A little while ago, Roche, Basel's other big pharma company, had to withdraw a couple of drugs that had just received FDA approval, when hitherto unknown and undesirable side-effects emerged.
 
Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
dead serious mate, pyschaitric ones in particular
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Yes but the point that Tones was making is that a bit of wire is a lot easier to understand, from a scientific point of view, than a complex biological system.

I think we have worked out more or less exactly how wire 'works'.
 
Originally posted by wolfgang
it seems some people seems to have a big problem in understanding that every time people like me says, did you come to this conclusion after DBT or not? is interpreted as INSULTING their golden ear ability. :confused: It is not!
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With respect wolfgang, asking "did you DBT or not?" is quite a provocative thing to say. If responded to with "No" it's bound to lead to the "well then how can you be sure there was a difference?" question and World War 87 erupts :rolleyes:

I have never personally taken part in a DBT. I think it would be interesting to do so but I think it would be quite absurd, not to mention pretty impractical, to use them on a regular basis before buying anything.

Michael.
 
If people want to use DBT to make a purchase that is thier choice, as is mine to trust my ears
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Aargh.

If you truly trusted your ears you would want only to do DBT. It's the only way of conducting a listening test, rather than a whole body experience test. Why do the self-proclaimed 'subjectivists' so often mix this up?

I think the definitions are wrong. I'm a pure subjectivist. I want to choose a hifi to please me, and that includes the nature of the CD drawer and the colour of the cables. But if you claim that your stands change the sound, or your wires are directional, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether what you are claiming is real. And that can only be done with a listening test, that implies you don't know what you're listening to, and that the operator isn't tapping his foot at the right moments. Once you've proved you can hear a difference then a subjective preference can be expressed, and you can truly say you're trusting your ears.

Paul
 
This is a good forum because there are a number of posters with lots of knowledge and experience and with a wide range of views. People obviously need to be able to express these views freely for a good debate to develop, but care does need to be taken that debates don't turn into personal slanging matches. Not that, to be perfectly honest, I see this happening much.

When new members post cable related questions of all sorts it is I think important for the non-believers to be able to point out that there are those that don't believe such products make a difference. For someone new to HiFi and basing their knowledge purely on HiFi magazines and what HiFi shops tell them, the idea that it is not a given that more expensive cables improve things is a very valid one to pass on. I'd put myself in that position two years ago, and all the debates I've read have made me much more seriously evaluate all these things in my system, which is only a good thing.

Don't give up on this forum Michael, it's a fun and worthwhile forum, and I for one appreciate your efforts in running it.

Martin
 
Originally posted by Paul Ranson
... But if you claim that your stands change the sound, or your wires are directional, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether what you are claiming is real. And that can only be done with a listening test, that implies you don't know what you're listening to, and that the operator isn't tapping his foot at the right moments ...
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Does that include speaker stands (or the speaker/floor interface)?

Surely some changes are bleedin' obvious and even the most fervent objectivist wouldn't need a BT or DBT to tell which he preferred.

Let's say we put a 'black box' into the circuit that added varying amounts of high order harmonic distortion to the sound coming out of the speakers.

We can all imagine then, that when the distortion setting was set to 'very high', the difference would be clear to everyone. You could also reduce the distortion until it was so low that a BT would be required for anyone to be able to consistently give an accurate comparison between on and off.

So are we talking about a question of sensitivity here?
 
Does that include speaker stands (or the speaker/floor interface)?
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Sure.

Surely some changes are bleedin' obvious and even the most fervent objectivist wouldn't need a BT or DBT to tell which he preferred.
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Where do you draw the bleedin' line?

In general we're talking about subtle stuff albeit still 'jaw dropping' for some.

So are we talking about a question of sensitivity here?
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Yes and no. It's interesting to know the sensitivity of the human ear to high order distortion. It would be more interesting to know whether cable directionality exists. In the first case we would get a number that 99% of people couldn't detect, and then we could use the proverbial oscilloscope and good engineering to ensure our electronics (or speakers) were 10 times better than that. But would that make them good hifi? In the second we might be on the way to a Nobel prize for physics.

A DBT can be used to prove an audible difference. Once we have that difference then an expression of preference becomes meaningful. And of course if you cannot hear the difference then price becomes more significant.

It's a shame that DBT are so difficult to arrange.

Paul
 
Originally posted by Lt Cdr Data
why don't you get a cable bake off together and collate the findings? only way to be sure.....
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I'm not convinced that it would be a way to be sure but assuming that a cable bakeoff is got together ...

1. What is the goal of the bake off?

Let's accept from the start that many of us won't attach as much weight to a BT or DBT as to a more extended home listening session.

2. What sort of system do we set up and does this impact on the cable bake?

a) Pratty - Solid state system
b) Plinky - Valve system
c) Other

3. Source?

a) Vinyl
b) CD
c) Both
d) Tikka Masala

3. What sort of music programme do we choose and how long for each session? Should a tester be familiar with the particular piece of music. How many testers can we process in one bake off? :D

4. What are we listening to and how do we judge?

Do we give marks for each category, and then weights to those marks? Categories such as: bass quality, mid-band, high end, detail, clarity, rhythm, what?

5. How do we conduct the test? BT, DBT , equalizing volume levels, blind-folds, screens, leave the room during set-up, leave the planet during set-up?

6. What cables do we listen to? A selection of:

a) ICs
b) Speaker cables
c) Mains cables
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

How many cables are needed to do the system?
How many brands of each cable do we have?

7. What categories have I left out?

8. Who should organize the event?

a) Hard line objectivist
b) Moderate objectivist
c) Moderate subjectivist
d) Hard line subjectivist
e) Anyone that can be bothered
f) No one

Well, those are my thoughts anyway.
 

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