Tact room correction?

[merlin]

And your point is?

My point is Steve, go for good power handling (use a highpass ) and why not consider the active class D option, fairly easy given the lack of a crossover.

You are right about the centre channel - the reason for it's most popular layout is purely cosmetic and indeed for a long time, any serious AV nut used three totally identical speakers across the front soundstage.

The other thing to bare in mind is that you have to keep the costs low. Trust me, high end sub sat packages do not sell to the AV/good housekeeping crowd. Anything over £1,500 all in has a very limited market.

 

[7_V]

My point is Steve, go for good power handling (use a highpass ) and why not consider the active class D option, fairly easy given the lack of a crossover.

I suppose I could put in a capacitor (switchable, naturally). By 'active class D option' do you mean more than the planned built-in sub amp? Are you suggesting active on all speakers? :gasp:

You are right about the centre channel - the reason for it's most popular layout is purely cosmetic and indeed for a long time, any serious AV nut used three totally identical speakers across the front soundstage.

As my AV range is envisioned as being wall-mounted (about 2" thick), is there any reason that the front centre shouldn't also be wall-mounted in most installations?

The other thing to bare in mind is that you have to keep the costs low. Trust me, high end sub sat packages do not sell to the AV/good housekeeping crowd. Anything over £1,500 all in has a very limited market.

I think I can confidentally predict then that my market will be limited.

Still, the new 'panel' range should be considerably less expensive to build than the audiophile range.

 

[lowrider]

My point is Steve, go for good power handling (use a highpass ) and why not consider the active class D option, fairly easy given the lack of a crossover.

We are talking about AV here, all receivers and processors come equiped with bass management, so his speakers will use highpass and be active automatically, as they have no xover... :MILD:

 

[lowrider]

As my AV range is envisioned as being wall-mounted (about 2" thick), is there any reason that the front centre shouldn't also be wall-mounted in most installations?

Most people will mount the center under the plasma, horizontal...

 

[Decca]

7_V

All the magazine should be able to give you detailed info on whom their customers are. Age, income, spending profiles etc.

 

[7_V]

All the magazine should be able to give you detailed info on whom their customers are. Age, income, spending profiles etc.

That's true and in fact I have the 'Factfile' for Home Cinema Choice, which includes circulation figures and a profile of their typical reader, including:

male, 25-35 yrs, ..... actively seeking to add to and improve his home entertainment base, whether buying a DVD player/Plasma/Hi End Speaker System or simply some more software .... etc., etc.

It is often difficult to get a true picture from the bumph put out by magazines as they rarely give detailed information on their readers' demographics or financial status. I've enjoyed reading Home Cinema Choice but get the impression that it covers the full spectrum, low to high end. If anyone can point me in the direction of other, higher end AV mags for comparison, it would be helpful. The salesman (very nice guy) from Highbury Entertainment told me that HCC was their highest end publication of the several that they had in this market.

 

[merlin]

Steve,

why not take a look over at AV Forums to get a good idea of the demographic? You will quite possibly be shocked

The last thing I want to be is a damp squib here but unless you are planning a total about face, the AV market is just not mature enough.

The Proac Hexa system is pretty good as sub/sats go, but sales are poor simply because it costs £2,500. That's too much! You have two market sectors over there. The dedicated enthusiast who will set aside the room for a no compromise setup with scant regard for space or aestetics. then the lifestyle brigade who want something discreet. The problem with them is that they are unwilling to spend more than about £1,500 on a speaker setup, the vast majority spending half that.

I just don't see where your target audience is sorry

 

[michaelab]

Steve, AFAIK there are no really high-end AV mags in the UK. Sure, there are people who read HCC who have 30K AV systems but you'll find that the vast majority of that money has gone on the "V" side of things in the form of a mega expensive CRT projector and/or plasma screen plus all the custom install bells and whistles such as motorized screens + curtains and lighting all controlled from a tablet PC . I would imagine that for the average reader the most expensive item by far they'll be buying will be a plasma screen or projector.

In the many 30K+ AV systems I've seen in mags, rarely has more than 30% gone on the "A" side of things (processor, amps and speakers).

In many ways, the more high end of the "A" side of AV is covered more by the HiFi mags such as HiFi News and HiFi Choice.

I would browse through AV Forums (the largest UK based AV forums and the official forums of HCC and several other mags) and then also AVS Forum which is a US based AV forum who's membership is generally much more high end to get a flavour of what kind of setups people are buying.

Michael.

 

[7_V]

Thanks for all the info, guys.

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree. Sure the market isn't mature yet. Should I hold back until it is?

There will always be the high end. As soon as people twig that there are high end speakers for AV set ups and that better sound quality gives a better movie experience, those who can afford them will want them.

As sure as eggs are eggs, hi-fi and AV will converge over the next few years. I know of one UK-based, high end valve amplifier manufacturer who is planning their assault on the AV market, even as we speak.

What is needed are AV speaker systems that can hold their head up high (and I mean high) in audiophile circles. Then what's needed is a company that can market those systems. Those are the challenges.

I know you guys mean well but once I get into speaker-design-mode I'm like a man possessed and more than a little difficult to stop. Sorry.

 

[kermit]

There will always be the high end. As soon as people twig that there are high end speakers for AV set ups and that better sound quality gives a better movie experience, those who can afford them will want them.

I know I said I wasn,t posting any more but I,m sorry I,ve been itching to post a reply for a while
Steve , I just don,t know how much time or effort you,ve put into this but....
My understanding of AV is that there are plenty of more than capable speakers out there , in fact that the quality of speakers is way ahead of surround processing .
ie , that the better the speakers the more artificial the sound is .
I,m just wondering whether you should be looking at making your lovely design more accessible to the masses .... in stereo .
I,m not saying cut your prices (again ) , but perhaps making a range that carries some of your favorite innovations .
I,m also not saying don,t carry on with the AV route , but I am suggesting that maybe you should say to yourself , ultimate quality isn,t needed here , an attractive and accessible product is worth pushing through but at a price point (completely agreee with merlin here)that can be bought by the masses not the elite .
all the best ,
richard

 

[7_V]

... My understanding of AV is that there are plenty of more than capable speakers out there , in fact that the quality of speakers is way ahead of surround processing .
ie , that the better the speakers the more artificial the sound is .

... I,m just wondering whether you should be looking at making your lovely design more accessible to the masses .... in stereo .
I,m not saying cut your prices (again ) , but perhaps making a range that carries some of your favorite innovations .
I,m also not saying don,t carry on with the AV route , but I am suggesting that maybe you should say to yourself , ultimate quality isn,t needed here , an attractive and accessible product is worth pushing through but at a price point (completely agreee with merlin here)that can be bought by the masses not the elite.

Your comment about the quality of surround processing is very interesting. I imagine that it's difficult to say for sure, as there are other variables - power amps, preamps and components used in the processor. If all of these things are 'tuned' then it comes down to the quality of the processing chip itself. That would certainly be a limiting factor on sound quality. Perhaps others could give their opinion on how limiting the chip is.

It doesn't necessarily follow that the better the speakers, the more artificial the sound is, although better speakers will reveal more of the faults. I think it's more complex than that and that there's a degree to which better speakers improve the sound, anyway. Otherwise, all the AV guys would be choosing the worst speakers they could lay their hands on.

Re. my speakers - thanks for your kind intentions, Richard. The forthcoming Nonsuch 2 stand-mount speaker will be more accessible to more people (ie. cheaper)than the Nonsuch 4. However, it's not a good idea IMO for a small company to try to make products for the masses. It puts them in competition with massive companies with whom they cannot compete. Seventh Veil would always be better serving the high end. It's just a question of how high.

The flat panel range (wall-mounted) will, I hope, be a hi-fi speaker that's less expensive than the Nonsuch range - whether it's used in AV or stereo. I'm also continuing to develop the Nonsuch and Little Awesome ranges.

 

[lowrider]

Steve,

Dont pay attention to the naysayers, theirs is the swan's song...

I find ridiculous what they are saying, they must be blind, and deaf, everybody has or wants to have AV, look at WM...

There are different approaches:

1 - Integrate with the "old" stereo, quite common with audiophiles, including those still hiding in the closet...

2 - Dedicated room, or a good compromise like mine, where "normal" speakers are used, like your hifi range, you need a center for those too...

3 - AV in the living room, nice plasma, or/and projector, plus small lifestyle speakers, this is the niche you must be aiming with the new wallmounts, there arent many "expensive" and nice looking alternatives, look at the KEF 9000, Vienna Acoustics Shonberg series + Classic Waltz, etc...

 

[bottleneck]

'everybody has or wants to have av'?

I dont want AV I havent got AV.

Technobear doesnt even have a TV never mind any AV.

'everybody' therefore SLIGHT exageration?


NB Reasons I dont want AV:

1) I only tend to watch films once
2) Most films arent even worth watching once
3) speakers all over the place looks like shit - 2 is bad enough
4) I dont want to waste my money on something I wouldnt use
5) I get a reasonable effect just attaching my TV audio out into my preamp.

 

[7_V]

There are different approaches:

1 - Integrate with the "old" stereo, quite common with audiophiles, including those still hiding in the closet...

2 - Dedicated room, or a good compromise like mine, where "normal" speakers are used, like your hifi range, you need a center for those too...

3 - AV in the living room, nice plasma, or/and projector, plus small lifestyle speakers, this is the niche you must be aiming with the new wallmounts, there arent many "expensive" and nice looking alternatives, look at the KEF 9000, Vienna Acoustics Shonberg series + Classic Waltz, etc...

I tend to think that, in the longer term, "normal" speakers will be used and that the AV will be integrated with the stereo. It makes so much more sense. However, just as speakers became considerably smaller in the 60s, with the introduction of stereo to replace mono, they will become smaller still as 5-1 replaces stereo. Hence my wallmount concept.

Yes, I am aiming for your category 3 with the wallmounts. However, I'm hoping to do well enough with the design to satisfy audiophile sensibilities as well. My view is that, with speakers, quality is quality - whether for stereo or AV.

 

[merlin]

Steve,

Dont pay attention to the naysayers, theirs is the swan's song...

Do pay attention Steve - we care about you

Seriously if there exists a niche, then no one has yet seen any evidence of it sadly. I cannot see a need.

I've got AV along with many others here. Total investment is about the same as a couple of cables, and it's great for movies- anything more is pure extravagence.

And no this is not a dig at Antonio - but honestly try comparing a Lexicon MC12 or Showcase with a AA Capitole 11 or Wadia and you begin to understand why high end music making remains the property of dedicated two channel product IMO.

I wish you luck Steve, but knowing a few speaker designers who have tried the quality but discreet sub/sat route and found no interest from dealers or the public, I do feel you could use your undoubted talents more fruitfully

 

[lowrider]

Bottleneck,

AV doesnt mean surround, just the output of your TV or cableTV connected to your stereo is AV...

I know some people doesnt watch TV at all, of course those are exceptions, everyone else would like to have good sound from his TV... :MILD:

Steve,

Class 3 with money would like quality, regardless of price, but their other halves wont accept normal speakers...

 

[7_V]

'everybody has or wants to have av'?

I dont want AV I havent got AV.

Technobear doesnt even have a TV never mind any AV.

'everybody' therefore SLIGHT exageration?

I suspect Antonio was exaggerating to make the point.

However, as LCD, Plasma screens and projectors become more widespread, more and more people will choose to have a 'cinema type experience' at home. If cinemas use surround, then surround is the only way to get the 'truth' that we're so keen on in the audiophile context.

There are many bad films but many good ones too. People like the movies. I do too.

Pass the popcorn, please.

 

[lowrider]

And no this is not a dig at Antonio - but honestly try comparing a Lexicon MC12 or Showcase with a AA Capitole 11 or Wadia and you begin to understand why high end music making remains the property of dedicated two channel product IMO.

Nor your AA Capitole 11 nor the Wadia will play movies properly, or the new formats...

What is high-end music, one thing for you, another for the next guy, I am very happy with my Mercedes class C, wich is high-end for most people, dont really need a Rolls or a Ferrari, most people dont... :MILD:

You dont have high-end either, just some weird combination of kit that makes you happy, if only for a couple of days, why try to impose your view of entretainement to the whole world...

 

[7_V]

Dont pay attention to the naysayers, theirs is the swan's song...

Do pay attention Steve - we care about you

A-a-a-a-r-r-g-g-g-h-h-h-h

But seriously, there are times when I have to fall back on my designers' mantra...

"Listen to everyone and then ...



... do exactly what you want."

 

[penance]

I know some people doesnt watch TV at all, of course those are exceptions, everyone else would like to have good sound from his TV... :MILD:

wrong again

I watch TV to see the news, thats about it. So TV sound quality really is not a priority.
I prefer to have a dedicated 2ch system instead of a sonic compromise.
TV is a drug for people with not much imagination