The difference between mainstream HIFI, budget seperates, midrange and high end?

[nando]

quote

Well, I've agreed a truce with David offline so perhaps this is a good time to go back to the original thread topic.

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So for starters,

- why do some CD players cost north of £10k and what technology might they include that cannot be implemented for say £1k?

- Why do some SS amplifiers cost £10k+ and again what is there inside those that cannot be achieved at one tenth of the price?

hi rob & dev,
i think that there has always being a difference in tonal sound over the years by diferent makes of audio equipment, some prefeable some not, it was to the indidual to choose and for us " working at sales" to try and demonstrate the difference betwin one or more componantes that reproduced sound to music, some could tell ,low,. mid, or expensive eq. not always the case went toward the high end unless you had the money to show to your friends how much it cost r,luther than hear what it sounded like against lesser valued systems, that is not to say that some high end eq. is not inferior to sound , my arguement is how high is high,!
nando.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I can think of two things. 1) The casework is usually very nice and costs a bomb. 2) They are usually manufactured in a place with high production costs (and good quality work). For example I think it would be pretty hard to build that CA 840a amp for under 1k retail if it was built in Germany rather than China. Is this the full reason for such high prices? I don't know!

I'm in total agreement with Simon. There's no way a small manufacturer is going to compete with their cost of sales (bringing the product to market) unless they cut back what's often one of their most expensive calling cards (the casework) and their payroll (total staff of only 2 or 3 people instead of 100.)

IMO this is a big part of what separates the Avondales, Crofts and NVAs from Naims of the world and the Naims from the Sonys of the world.

regards,

dave

 

[Dev]

So for starters,

- why do some CD players cost north of £10k and what technology might they include that cannot be implemented for say £1k?

- Why do some SS amplifiers cost £10k+ and again what is there inside those that cannot be achieved at one tenth of the price?

I can think of two things. 1) The casework is usually very nice and costs a bomb. 2) They are usually manufactured in a place with high production costs (and good quality work). For example I think it would be pretty hard to build that CA 840a amp for under 1k retail if it was built in Germany rather than China. Is this the full reason for such high prices? I don't know!

3) Profiteering/Greed, as in charging what the buyers are willing to pay for certain badge.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Dev,

With all due respect, I disagree regarding your greed thing just because of the price tag and what consumers might be willing to pay. If you have four people or even a hundred people on staff and you only sell a HANDFUL of labor-intense boxes you MUST sell each box at extraordinary prices to insure you'll make enough to cover expenses, make a profit and leave money for future expenses, growth and product support.

Greed, IMO, is rebadging a competitor's cheap box in a custom box with no real improvements in circuitry providing no improvements in performance or consumer benefits other than a substantially higher price tag. Actually, that's more than greed, it's criminal.

regards,

dave

 

[nando]

AVERICE, perhaps,
nando.

 

[Dev]

Dev,

With all due respect, I disagree regarding your greed thing just because of the price tag and what consumers might be willing to pay. If you have four people or even a hundred people on staff and you only sell a handful of labor-intense boxes you MUST sell each box at extraordinary prices to insure you'll make enough to cover expenses, make a profit and leave money for future expenses and growth.

Greed, IMO, is rebadging a competitor's cheap box in a custom box with no real improvements in circuitry providing improved performance or consumer benefits other than a substantially higher price tag. Actually, that's more than greed, it's criminal.

regards,

dave

I didn't mean that all manufacturers are greedy, but in some cases there is an element of this. Forget HiFi, this exists in all markets. Just think back to fuel shortages and how within an hour fuel prices shot up during lorry drivers strike.

Also we shouldn't forget about snobbery. I can remember the famous/infamous wine-tasting session in California where the tasters preferred the taster preferred the most expensive wine, only to find out later that the same wine was used in both tests.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I'm sure there are some exceptions regarding greed but if you do the math, you'll soon find selling a box for four hundred bucks that costs you a thousand to make because of salaries, overhead, small-scale production and small target market...you won't be in business for long. We all need to get past the parts count thing. It's never been about parts count nor will it ever be.

Regarding your snobbery example, that's a problem I blame on the consumer more than the manufacturer. If consumers believe the superficial "buy my product and you'll be rich, popular and successful" marketing crap some manufacturers pump out, they (the consumer) deserve what they get.

regards,

dave

 

[Dev]

Agreed.

 

[RobHolt]

Let's look at things from a slightly different perspective then.

Why does a £40 transformer, a handful of caps and resistors costing perhaps £15, a quids worth of wiring, £2 worth of chip regulators and a case cost upwards of 1k?
As a spin off discussion, has anyone actually looked at how clean the output might be from an expensive but basic PSU such as that described compared to say, the internal pre amp rails?
We are told that the former will give better performance but does actual evidence exist?
Surely there is nothing subjective about pre amp PSU performance.

As a cost comparator, an entire 840A/2 costs £800.

The explanation here must be more than just the country of manufacture.

However, I'm more interested in the high-end - those £10k boxes of electronics where the circuit is king. What justifies the cost?

 

[Dave Simpson]

The selling price is justified by how much it costs to produce (parts count/cost is a small part of this number) and if it performs better than a competitor's product (something each of us must determine and none of us will fully agree on) For example, I find (olive) Naim good value -others will not. I find most of the traditional mid-fi lines poor value -others will not.

My decisions are based on how the product sounds to me, reliability and the manufacturer's reputation for service ...and all wrapped up in a package which I can afford (or wish to afford.)

EDIT: my comments do not reflect an opinion on Cambridge. I've not heard their products.

 

[mr cat]

I didn't mean that all manufacturers are greedy, but in some cases there is an element of this. Forget HiFi, this exists in all markets. Just think back to fuel shortages and how within an hour fuel prices shot up during lorry drivers strike.

Also we shouldn't forget about snobbery. I can remember the famous/infamous wine-tasting session in California where the tasters preferred the taster preferred the most expensive wine, only to find out later that the same wine was used in both tests.

yeah, and look at cliff richard on the gordon ramsey show - he tasted some red wine and slated one as being cheap and nasty...it just so happened to be his very own...

 

[Dev]

Rob, the component costs are usually a fraction of the total manufacturing costs. Think of the marketing, salaries for staff, R&D, tooling, heating, lighting, rates/rents, bank loans etc. etc.


On a different topic, upgrading costs can be disproportionally higher. For example someone buys a CDP for a £100 and say £10 on higher spec components. If he then spends a whole day upgrading (i.e. removing the components he wants to replace and then replacing them he needs to charge a whole day's wage and other costs mentioned above just to make it worthwhile.

 

[felix]

Porsche are the most profitable car manufacturer on a per-unit basis. Many people choose to buy and are happy with their products for all sorts of reasons. I'm sure even the owners would freely admit that if one just wanted to match any specified performance statistic, it can be done with cheaper vehicles.

IOW - it's all about perception of value (including self-worth/ego, frankly) and all the other irrational things that engineers generally don't control.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Life has surface noise even though I prefer digital

 

[Dev]

Martin, it could be argued that they spend relatively small amount on marketing. Whereas the manufacturers of cheaper cars spend proportionally more on selling their products.

 

[Dave Simpson]

People buy resonating hifi bowls to mask or modify a problem with the sound in their room instead of fixing the root cause but it's their money...

 

[nando]

quote

I'm sure there are some exceptions regarding greed but if you do the math, you'll soon find selling a box for four hundred bucks that costs you a thousand to make because of salaries, overhead, small-scale production and small target market...you won't be in business for long. We all need to get past the parts count thing. It's never been about parts count nor will it ever be.

Regarding your snobbery example, that's a problem I blame on the consumer more than the manufacturer. If consumers believe the superficial "buy my product and you'll be rich, popular and successful" marketing crap some manufacturers pump out, they (the consumer) deserve what they get.

regards,

dave

dave, with respect do you know about r&d if you do as i do once you have past the product test the cost is consumed by the r&d that took time and lots of dosh to get it right, next step is the biggest gamble if you are new to the hi-fi market" bran not known, hence you will relly on reviews and adds and soforth, all costing quite a few bob, but on the other hand stablished companies have the r&d in their brains therefore it is simpless yes ichk.
nando.

 

[Tenson]

The explanation here must be more than just the country of manufacture.

However, I'm more interested in the high-end - those £10k boxes of electronics where the circuit is king. What justifies the cost?

A couple more thoughts. For example if the higher manufacture costs make an amp like the 840a retail at £2,000 rather than £800, you may find it sells fewer units. This in turn means they have to not only charge for the higher production cost but also add something to cover the lower sales volume. Regardless of the manufacture costs, people need to make enough profit to live from.

Also, I think there are price brackets with hi-fi. You may find that a £2,000 amp will sell fewer units than a amp under £1,000. You may also find that due to the price brackets, a £6,000 amp sells just as many as a £2,000 amp because it is over the £1,000 price hurdle. So of course you sell it at £6,000.

All just ideas, I'm not defending the high prices, just considering possible reasons!

 

[Dave Simpson]

dave, with respect do you know about r&d if you do as i do once you have past the product test the cost is consumed by the r&d that took time and lots of dosh to get it right, next step is the biggest gamble if you are new to the hi-fi market" bran not known, hence you will relly on reviews and adds and soforth, all costing quite a few bob, but on the other hand stablished companies have the r&d in their brains therefore it is simpless yes ichk.
nando.

Hi Nando,

I'm sure R&D costs are minimal with some new products but others are entirely new technologies (for their R&D dept if not everyone's) or new applications of old technologies...and time costs money. There are so many expenses folks don't know or think about when bringing a product to market. As we've discussed, not everyone is on the same playing field which complicates matters further.

TBH, the only greed I can truly point out with any degree of certainty would be obvious snake-oil (creamy stuff on an alligator clip attached to your genitals or resonating hifi bowls which mask a problem at a high price that probably could have been cured for little or no cost) and rebadged boxes where the only difference is the box, badge and price tag.

regards,

dave

 

[nando]

Who Doesen't
Nando.