The difference between mainstream HIFI, budget seperates, midrange and high end?

[The Devil]

Leading on from Empiricism there was Karl Popper who argued that a statement can only be scientificif it was amenable to VERIFICATION - in laymans' terms 'prove it!'
I think I have shown that we in Hifi are in a reasonable position to do just that.

Quite right, and the point is that cable tests prove there is no objective difference, and the subjective improvements are purely imaginary.

 

[Tenson]

I'm frankly astonished you should make these comments with your background.

Doesn't room correction produce some impressive results?

Perhaps we disagree on what constitutes a tweak? I think of tweaks as things like changing interconnects, putting a mat on a CD, or using mains filters. I call it a tweak BECAUSE it makes a small difference, and often no difference at all. It wont change my enjoyment of the music, although I can understand it to be fun seeing what happens.

Room correction can make a substantial change to the sound, for better or worse, so I don't understand how anybody would call it a tweak. It can certainly change my enjoyment of the music, as can other significant changes. Not most tweaks though.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I think the physics of electrical cables is known, for all practical purposes. There may be odd things happening in quantum mechanics which are counterintuitive and difficult to comprehend, but I doubt that it makes any difference to audio.




It depends what you mean by "reasonably close" and "a million miles". I think what we have now is actually very close, and I've often got up to answer the phone during plays / The Archers on Radio 4. Very annoying it is, too.

I think microphone technology at one end, and speaker technology at the other, is going to be where things improve in the future. I really don't think that nerding about with cables achieves anything at all, except at a psychological level.

The problem with this "we don't know everything there is to know" argument is that it opens up into "the god of the gaps" argument, and religion appears in the form of cable worship. We know how cables work, we know about the placebo effect, and we know that our brains can misinterpret sensory information.

So we can already explain why people think they hear cables making a difference without having to assume that the known properties of electrical cables are wrong or incomplete, and when the perceived difference disappears on blind testing, this confirms our theory.

Personally, I doubt there's huge gains to be made with cable technology (other than connectors perhaps-and not huge) and I'm sure many manufacturers don't build them to standards all of which probably explains the perceived differences.

 

[RobHolt]

Room correction can make a substantial change to the sound, for better or worse, so I don't understand how anybody would call it a tweak. It can certainly change my enjoyment of the music, as can other significant changes. Not most tweaks though.

The room and how it performs is fundamental and often plays a greater part in the final sound than the system itself because room sonic effects are often greater than those between systems - even complete and quite different systems.

So definitely not a tweak!

 

[The Devil]

Personally, I doubt there's huge gains to be made with cable technology (other than connectors perhaps-and not huge) and I'm sure many manufacturers don't build them to standards all of which probably explains the perceived differences.

Hi Dave,

I'm going to have to prise that crucifix from your cold, lifeless fingers!

;-)

P.S. Saw this, whilst rofl-ing (watching amusing car crash) elsewhere:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06

"Even sillier than expensive speaker wire is replacement AC power cords and most other power ââ'¬Å"conditionerââ'¬Â products. The sales claims sound logical: Noise and static can get into your gear through the power line and damage the sound. In severe cases it's possible for powerrelated clicks and buzzes to get into your system, but those are easily noticed. The suggestion that subtle changes in ââ'¬Å"clarity and presenceââ'¬Â can occur is plain fraud. Indeed, every competent circuit designer knows how to filter out power line noise, and such protection is routinely added to all commercial audio products. Spending hundreds of dollars on a six-foot replacement power cord ignores the other hundred-odd feet of regular wire between the wall outlet and power pole."

Trust your ears..

 

[DavidF]

Perhaps we disagree on what constitutes a tweak? I think of tweaks as things like changing interconnects, putting a mat on a CD, or using mains filters. I call it a tweak BECAUSE it makes a small difference, and often no difference at all. It wont change my enjoyment of the music, although I can understand it to be fun seeing what happens.

Room correction can make a substantial change to the sound, for better or worse, so I don't understand how anybody would call it a tweak. It can certainly change my enjoyment of the music, as can other significant changes. Not most tweaks though.

Most of the experiments I've done have focused on vibration control AKA microphany.

I've come to regard as "tweaking" for my own purposes but the effects are far from minor (IME) and have substantially increased my enjoyment of music.

I have actually left the hobby for a bit, concious that I was perhaps spending a bit too much time on it. I spent more time than I care to report (last year) attempting (unsuccessfully) to fullfill an ambition to learn jive/rock and roll.

 

[DavidF]

Quite right, and the point is that cable tests prove there is no objective difference, and the subjective improvements are purely imaginary.

In your opinion, I think.

Take a look at the pink fish debate.

Quiet interesting.

, but there is no reason to infer that science knows absolutely nothing about cables.

As BD reasonably points out no one is suggesting that science knows nothing.

The indications are that that science doesn't know everything.



As someone said I woiuld jump of your cross, TD.

There are other things to devote your life to other than trying to prevent people from experimenting with their hifi.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Hi Dave,

I'm going to have to prise that crucifix from your cold, lifeless fingers!

;-)

P.S. Saw this, whilst rofl-ing (watching amusing car crash) elsewhere:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06

"Even sillier than expensive speaker wire is replacement AC power cords and most other power "conditioner" products. The sales claims sound logical: Noise and static can get into your gear through the power line and damage the sound. In severe cases it's possible for powerrelated clicks and buzzes to get into your system, but those are easily noticed. The suggestion that subtle changes in "clarity and presence" can occur is plain fraud. Indeed, every competent circuit designer knows how to filter out power line noise, and such protection is routinely added to all commercial audio products. Spending hundreds of dollars on a six-foot replacement power cord ignores the other hundred-odd feet of regular wire between the wall outlet and power pole."

Trust your ears..

LOL...if I lived in the UK I'd have you centering your CDS and 52's DINs in ten minutes tops. We'd also do something about that oil rig.

 

[Dave Simpson]

The room and how it performs is fundamental and often plays a greater part in the final sound than the system itself because room sonic effects are often greater than those between systems - even complete and quite different systems.

So definitely not a tweak!

I'd never consider the room just a tweak or unimportant but I do wonder which would sound more real - Fiona Apple live in my tiled shower stall or a very good recording of Fiona on my favorite playback system in a good room?

 

[The Devil]

In your opinion, I think.

Take a look at the pink fish debate.

Quiet interesting.





As BD reasonably points out no one is suggesting that science knows nothing.

The indications are that that science doesn't know everything.



As someone said I woiuld jump of your cross, TD.

There are other things to devote your life to other than trying to prevent people from experimenting with their hifi.

Hello DavidF

No-one has been able to tell cables apart in a proper double-blind test. Randi's $million is still Randi's. People claim "huge" cable differences, but this doesn't hold up. Not my opinion.

I've seen the pfm "debate". Zero data, but subjective opinions. Waste of time.

"Science" doesn't know everything? True, but do you think we don't know what's going on in a bit of wire, David? Do you really believe that hi-fi cables and hi-fi systems present an impenetrable problem for modern-day scientists?

 

[The Devil]

I'd never consider the room a tweak or unimportant but I do wonder which would sound more real - Fiona Apple live in my tiled shower stall or a very good recording of Fiona on my favorite playback system?

How about FA (the initials tell a story) with a very large apple in her mouth. Next door but one.

 

[Dave Simpson]

<big grin>

 

[DavidF]

Hello DavidF

No-one has been able to tell cables apart in a proper double-blind test. Randi's $million is still Randi's. People claim "huge" cable differences, but this doesn't hold up. Not my opinion.

Hi James.

No, no one claiming huge diferences.

I don't know of any of these blind testa positive or other wise.

I've seen the pfm "debate". Zero data, but subjective opinions. Waste of time.

Undoubtedly, as they disprove your ideals!!!

"Science" doesn't know everything? True, but do you think we don't know what's going on in a bit of wire, David? Do you really believe that hi-fi cables and hi-fi systems present an impenetrable problem for modern-day scientists?

I think the matter has been discussed james.

Time and time again

With respect, can't you think of anything else?

 

[RobHolt]

I'd never consider the room just a tweak or unimportant but I do wonder which would sound more real - Fiona Apple live in my tiled shower stall or a very good recording of Fiona on my favorite playback system in a good room?

You cannot compare in that way.

You'd be quite shocked if you had a live performance in your living room, let alone the confines of a shower room!

You simply cannot transplant the dynamic range and shear scale of a live, unadulterated performance into a typical listening room and expect to enjoy the results.
You have to compress it and scale things down in order to make the performance listenable in a comfortable way in your home.

All systems give a version of reality but none do and none should give everything. I include the recording chain in the system.
Yes we want low distortion, low colouration and a system that interacts well with the chosen acoustic environment but you certainly don't want 'real' dynamics - you couldn't handle it nor would it be a very enjoyable experience. Incredibly fatiguing in fact.
Of course that is no excuse to go squashing the life out of every performance but it does call for skill on the part of the recording and mastering teams.
Our hi-fi systems should produce neatly packaged and exquisitely finished miniatures of the real thing. In that form they are readily digestible

 

[RobHolt]

Hello DavidF

No-one has been able to tell cables apart in a proper double-blind test. Randi's $million is still Randi's.

Or on ZG.

 

[Dave Simpson]

You cannot compare in that way.

You'd be quite shocked if you had a live performance in your living room, let alone the confines of a shower room!

You simply cannot transplant the dynamic range and shear scale of a live, unadulterated performance into a typical listening room and expect to enjoy the results.
You have to compress it and scale things down in order to make the performance listenable in a comfortable way in your home.

All systems give a version of reality but none do and none should give everything. I include the recording chain in the system.
Yes we want low distortion, low colouration and a system that interacts well with the chosen acoustic environment but you certainly don't want 'real' dynamics - you couldn't handle it nor would it be a very enjoyable experience. Incredibly fatiguing in fact.
Of course that is no excuse to go squashing the life out of every performance but it does call for skill on the part of the recording and mastering teams.
Our hi-fi systems should produce neatly packaged and exquisitely finished miniatures of the real thing. In that form they are readily digestible

Fully agree...

Sometimes I wonder if much of the small amount of hardness with my Naim rig is simply due to it's dynamic capabilities when played at higher volumes exciting room modes. Drop the gain and the problem goes away.

 

[The Devil]

Hi James.

No, no one claiming huge diferences.

I don't know of any of these blind testa positive or other wise.

The cabledullards claim all sorts of things. Here's an incredibly stereotyped report of a mains cable (anonymised):

"The improvement was instantly noticeable. The first thing I noticed was bass notes, in fact all notes, had more distinctive texture, timing improved and rhythms on percussion seemed to make more sense."

Presumably cut 'n pasted from a hi-fi mag. That sort of thing fails to impress.

There are no positive blind tests of cables.

 

[RobHolt]

Fully agree...

Sometimes I wonder if much of the small amount of hardness with my Naim rig is simply due to it's dynamic capabilities when played at higher volumes exciting room modes. Drop the gain and the problem goes away.

Hard to say but there could be several reasons.

Might be the room.
Could be mild peak clipping.
Could be driver distortion - particularly at the bottom end of a tweeter dome or the top end of a mid/woofer if the crossover slopes are mild.

What are the speakers on that system?

 

[Dave Simpson]

Hard to say but there could be several reasons.

Might be the room.
Could be mild peak clipping.
Could be driver distortion - particularly at the bottom end of a tweeter dome or the top end of a mid/woofer if the crossover slopes are mild.

What are the speakers on that system?

It's happened with Briks (two vintages), Kabers and now SBLs. Power amp is an olive 250 recapped in the last seven or eight years (and a LK-280 previously.) I know I've got a severe slap back or flutter echo problem but without the expertise or test instruments the best I can do is throw darts with home-made wall treatments and bookshelves strategically placed. I've been very successful narrowing the slap back zone to a spot where ceiling and wall meets between the speakers and behind my chair. Any additional treatment using my home-made solutions in this zone either looks like crap or overdampens killing all of the dynamics.

P.S. The hardness is only with piano and only on very dynamic recordings -many recordings unfortunately;-)

 

[RobHolt]

It's happened with Briks (two vintages), Kabers and now SBLs. Power amp is an olive 250 recapped in the last seven or eight years (and a LK-280 previously.) I know I've got a severe slap back or flutter echo problem but without the expertise or test instruments the best I can do is throw darts with home-made wall treatments and bookshelves strategically placed. I've been very successful narrowing the slap back zone to a spot where ceiling and wall meets between the speakers and immediately behind my chair. Any additional treatment using my home-made solutions in this zone either look like crap or over damp killing all of the dynamics.

All of those speakers are a bit <diplomatic hat on> spiky in the mids and lower treble so a cure is going to be almost impossible IMO. A bit of hardness goes with the territory.