The DVD/Dac thing

edited by robbo by mistake

Sorry saab, I have buggered up your post by mistake by pressing the wrong button.

Robbo

 

I have done this, and the thing is they sound completely different and the CDP is miles better. And it is nothing to do with level matching either.

 

That was my experience as well Robbo,so I will buy a recognised good one and test again (with 2 blindfolds on to qualify for a dbt)

 

Two questions:

Would you feel like a complete tit if your $5K CD player (Sim Audio Moon Eclipse, right?) sounded just like your DVD player?

Why did buy a DVD player which sounds "completely different"?

 

Maybe he wanted to play Dvd's?

 

No,

I'd sell it and buy something else non-hifi. As it happens I cant listen to the dvd player with music for more than 5 minutes as the forward, edgy, unnatural sound ruins the music.

 

Would you feel like a complete tit if your $5K CD player (Mark Levinson CD390s, right?) sounded just like your DVD player?

 

I really like your way of using clichés.
In the last years, if you opened a bit your eyes, you will have maybe noticed that the consumer has gone in the oppisite direction. The consumer (not only Hifi) has become very attentive about the prices and the quality of the products especially because of the economical situation worldwise.
Everywhere there is tendency of showing off "how intelligent i am" that I buy stuff at a cheap price without loosing quality. You are a typical example. People are looking for these bargains and also in these cases there is a great psychological factor which make them believe cheap is not worse than expensive just like you say about people who think that expensive = better. The ego of a person works for both ways!
In these days it is vogue to buy bargains or cheap stuffs. There are even parties organized with exclusively budgets products. In all forums there are much more reports about bargains, cheap products and the cleverness of the members rather than serious reports on expensive products.
Todays tendancy of persons who know a little about hifi is to criticize an expensive system more than they would with a cheaper one also to convince themselves that it is not better than a system which costs 1/10th the price or that it is not better than what they have. And in this case any argument is good and has nothing to do with objectivity.
There are of course a variety of persons who do think generally that expensive is better and also these persons have different arguments for there decision which also has nothing to do with objectivity.
The gaap between poor people and rich has increased and this has increased the hate letting the emotions go up. This also doesn't help in the discussion cheap vs expensive.


About the discussion about cheap DVDs better that expensive CDP, I cannot say anything since I never tried to do a compare with for example a Denon DVD as here suggested. I will soon organise this and make up my own opinion.

 

I have a pretty poor DVD player, a Yelo 800 that cost me ~£120 from Amazon, so it will I'm sure come as no shock to anyone that it sounds truly awful for CD playback, as indeed it does for straight DVD playback but I normally play it through my DAC.

The ATC example is interesting. Do they still market their own pre and power amps (can't find their website to check at the minute)? I'd have thought for instance that if a £250 DVD player could be deemed all that anyone would require, then a perfect pre-amp should if anything be cheaper? The cynic in me points out that it is in the interests of a company that as far as I recall don't make source components, to try and reverse source first type thoughts to get people to spend more on speakers. That said, this example is still rather surprising, as clearly whatever the motivation they will want to give a good demo of their speakers.

 

I often use a Marantz CD-67SE CDP and a Tosh SD-240 DVD player playing CDs through a DAC. Interconnects are the same except that the one for CDP is only 0.8 meter while it is 3.5 meters for the DVD player.
CDP has a few mods done to it; the Tosh is standard. CDP does sound better. But not by that much.

Encouraged by the results I am planning to get a universal player. Denon 2900 or 3910 or a Pioneer of the same standard.

 

I agree with this last sentiment from MartinC: ATC must reckon their bit to be the key bit, and the use of active is logical backward integration that either continues all the way, a la Sony, or makes a stop, ie at the pre-amp. Active speakers need some pre-amp functionality, if only to make their product relevant to all types of source.

Entering the CD and DVD player market just now must rank among the most heroic, what with falling prices everywhere, although the mass uptake of DVDplayers opens up prospect of market revival for the business ATC are in.

Where is Dunkyboy in this debate, he who loves active ATC and having settled on that, spends much of his waking life (or did) trying to find a source to match, last seen wandering down Vinyl Way.

He did like the AudioSynthesis Transcend (Ncode)/Dax Decade combo with his ATC20s. So I suppose I ought to A/B my Toshiba SD410 dvdplayer against the AS combo (the three options including the Dax offboard to the Tosh), and then report.

 

No, clearly not, but there aren't any competently designed (which doesn't mean expensive) CDPs that give a poor signal.

Which is why source first is a load of rubbish. Good speakers will sound good with pretty much all competent CDPs or DVDPs. Poor speakers OTOH will sound poor regardless of what you give them.

I can see that it's easy to be cynical about a speaker company debunking the source first myth but they are right. The evidence is there for all to see (see oedipus's quote above).

merlin, AFAIK oedipus sold his ML 390s and now uses a Benchmark DAC1 (around $900, but for that you do get state of the art measured performance and (measured) total immunity to transport jitter).

Michael.

 

I use a Cheap Sony DVD player hooked upto my Rotel DVP-980 DAC for a while now.
A long time ago I did do a simple non-scientific, partially sighted ( )listening test to compare my DVD/DAC to my Arcam DD72 CDP. I honestly thought that the DVD/DAC combo sounded as good ( or as bad for any snobs) as the Arcam and so flogged the Arcam and have been using the DVD/DAC ever since.

I wonn't even bother discussing the Sony DVD as it is just a cheapy that i bought on a whim. I have set the Audio setting on it to downmix any music DVD's i own into straight stereo through the DAC. My DAC is something that i rather like. It has 5 coax and 5 optical digital inputs along with a kind of recording loop ( eg 2 in and 2 x out ). The unit is remote controlable and so during my Demos i was able to Flick between the Arcam CDP and Sony DVD at the flick of the remote, I suppose my demo was Partially sighted though as i got my wife to choose and fit the Coaxial digital leads into whichever input she chose. This was great as even though I could switch between the units i didn't know which transport i was actually listening to. Even though I strained and concentrated madly to try and find a very noticable difference between the two i couldn't. This made selling the Arcam CD72 so much easier.
I now have my computer connected digitally to the DAC via an optical cable and plan to hook up my sky box too , if i can ever be arsed.

Sometimes my Silver disc spinner sounds better than my LP12, sometimes it is the other way around. Mood swings , eh ? ( ). I popped the lid off the DAC the other day for the first time just to see why my DAC was so heavy and saw a good collection of top brand components ( eg 35 Blackgate electrolytics for starters). I know that you just can't judge an item on how many posh Capacitors it contains , however this makes me think that somebody in the design process made a bit of effort, or maybe they where just loading it full of 'badges' for the reviewers, either way it sounds OK to me, which is the main thing.

Do try the DVD/DAC combo Saab, if only to dismiss it as 'not for you', if my Rotel DAC ever goes Tits Up, i'll probably try to get it repaired, maybe even 'Breathed on' and improved, if the Sony DVD smokes then it will get trash canned.

 

I agree with the first part of the above statement, but even some good speakers can sound poor if the amp doesn't have the current capacity to drive them properly. So, I'd say you need to ensure that the amp and the speakers gel. Sorry to be pedantic .

Regarding the DVD/DAC, I've tried a Pioneer 626D as transport and compared it with Arcam (as transport into a modified Entech DAC and as a CDP) and yes there are differences. I prefer the Arcam on it's own, but to me at least, it meant that transports do make a difference.

Just to add, that the differences aren't night&day but are there.

 

Hi,

That is absolutely correct. Sadly there are also VERY FEW competently designed CD and DVD Players, so it evens out.

Most digital gear sounds nothing like listening to the (digital) Master through a good studio grade DAC (and few of these are as elaborate and tuned to high performance than High End ones), a direct result of poor design, resulting in a poor signal.

Ciao T

 

Just to clarify; as I understand it the point of the PFM thread was that a £250 DVD player was used as complete source, i.e. listening to it's analogue output? A discussion about a DVD player as an appropriate transport to feed a standalone DAC is an interesting but slightly seperate discussion I think...

 

Yes Martin, you're right. ATC demmed their Active 100s using a DVD player as a source (no external DAC). Presumably they used their own pre and of course the speakers are active so that's the amps taken care of.

Michael.

 

Its actually a truism that the speakers are the most different of components, giving the more variety and interest compared to sources.

I would go so far as to say its speakers, then amp, then source, and I think Thorsten has touched on it and I would guess its really the quality and implementation of the dac, as exemplified by those non os dacs. sound is very 'real'.poss the smps psu, too.

WM and I know atc speakers don't really thwack for all their size.

T..did you know the eikos cd is actually chock full of tantalums and ceramic caps? Evans' philosophy is that big parts are microphonic, so he goes small.

Personally, I prefer oil can size caps and carbon resistors, and paper woofers...natural materials

Michael, sig. change forthcoming....

 

Hi,

Absolutely. I have been inside that suckah quite a few times. The rectangular plastic encased tan'ts are not bad for many applications, equally ceramics are good for many job's.

At any extent, whatever Tomn does the Eikos sounds pretty special, I like it.

Quite right too old man, BUT there is a "right" part for every job. And no, it's usually not that one most audiophiles would recognise either.... ;-)

Ciao T

 

So,what is the difference between a competently designed DVD/CD Player,to one that isn't?surely they all read the 1s and 0s,what would make one more competently designed to sound better,than these one that arn't?