The Passion of The Christ

I thought that tying up with ropes around thw wrists and angles was the normal procedure which led to a slow and agonising death by asphyxiation (with your chest leaning out forwards it's very hard to breath). I thought that they used the nails in Jesus' case to make sure he died more quickly (blood loss) so that he'd be gone before passover?

I'm not planning to see the film. I wouldn't have anyway but the fact that so many evangelical Christians are promoting it has put me right off. They're saying things like "it really showed me how much Jesus suffered for our sins". Come on! What happened to faith? It's typical of the more evangelical elements of all religions that they're looking to any kind of "proof" for their beliefs, which is missing the point of religion IMO in that it's supposed to be about faith. If you had proof then there wouldn't be a need for religion anymore.

Reminds me of a "debate" which the God squad setup when I was at Bristol Uni. They really hyped it up and challenged anyone to come up with a theory that would "prove" that the resurrection of Christ didn't actually happen. They would have their own guy who would try to prove that it did. An independent panel of 5 judges would decide, using the measure of "beyond reasonable doubt" based on the argument from each side.

In the end they lost to a guy who had very convincing arguments to fit all the known evidence of what happened during those 3 days. When this guy came to accept the prize (I think it was about £2000!) he said something like: "As it happens I am a Christian and I do believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ but I have faith and don't need anyone to prove it to me" :MILD: You should have seen the faces of the God Squad group :NADowner:

Michael.

 

As far as I can tell, my understanding of cruxifiction is this....
I am no expert on romans BTW..

the nails were actually put in the wrist, past the complex joint of about 7 bones, one of which I painfully broke , and they go in between the radius and the ulna bone.

If they were put thro the palm, the weight of the body would tear the hand, so obvioulsy there would need to be ropes if this was done.

Hung on a cross, you would have to lift yourself up to breath, so being nearly dead from the brutal flogging, you would die very quick, as there would be no strength to haul yourself up.

Jesus' legs were broken, so apparently this also hastens death, because you can't push up, and thus suffocate quicker. I believe this was done in kindness.

However it puzzles me, that he took a little while to die, a few days? so they broke the legs to put him out of his misery.
But if he was SO badly flogged, why would he last days hanging on a cross, he would've been terribly injured and weak.

Am I missing something?


(Why not just put a sword thro a vital organ I don't know?)



Also, in Johns gospel, it says a roman put a spear in his side to see if he was dead, and out came a rush of blood and water. Some say this is symbolic, cleansing. Some say this is to do with separation of blood and water at death....I don't know if the latter happens, in which case imagery?

There is definately a need to understand what actually happened, not a nice jesus smiling down in white garments hanging on a cross, it is valuable to 'see' what really happened, just like 'shaving ryans privates' showed the true terrible situation of the Normandy landings, and makes you realise what people went thro. in the war.

I think and am sure others would agree, that it is one thing to drop a bomb on say Dresden, you can't see what it does, and to go down on the ground, see the burns, the injuries, the death, broken bodies, what you have done, being divorced from the reality of your actions somehow makes it easier to do and not seeing the result distances you from the impact.

This is one reason for the idea that criminals should be made to see the effects of their crime. It is one thing to get in a fight drunk, and punch someone, another to realise they fell and got brain damage, and a 20 year old fit man would spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair, visiting him and seeing the effects of your action day by day, and his struggle to speak, drink, dress, etc.

A good idea IMHO, and this disparity between doing something and not 'knowing' its impact is one of the problems of the human condition.

 

Possibly. But then we all are. My point of view is that it is not particularly helpful to take any of this too "literally".

 

Perhaps I can fill in a bit. Crucifixion was carried out either by tying the arms with ropes (as Michael said) or driving a nail (actually a large iron spike) through the wrist (as Data said) - a nail through the palm will not support the body and will simply tear out after a while. It seems that the Romans would often nail the hands of roped victims for extra nastiness. The blood loss wouldn't have been significant.

Jesus's legs weren't broken (see John 19:33). This was very important, because it is seen as a fulfilment of an Old Testament prophecy. The leg breaking (usually a crude blow with a hammer) was designed to accelerate death, because the bodies had to be down by sunset, which saw the commencement of the Jewish Pesach (Passover) feast, and it was done in deference to Jewish sensibilities (hanging on a tree was a particularly disgraceful death for a Jew and they didn't want bodies strung up on the Sabbath - a crucifixion victim could take up to three days to die). With broken legs, death came in a matter of minutes.

There was no need to break Jesus's legs, beause he was already dead. The spear thrust was meant to verify this. The blood and water could have been evidence of massive blood clotting, when the clear lymph separates from the red corpuscles. It may be also a piercing of the sac surrounding the heart and the heart itself. This detail was probably put in because, even only a few years after the events, it was held that Jesus had not died on the cross but only "swooned", and he recovered in the tomb. John (who was probably an eyewitness, and probably the one to whom he commended his mother for care (John 19: 26, 27)) was determined to show that he really was dead.

The interesting thing was that Jesus "cried out with a loud voice" (Matt.27:50). This is NOT typical of crucifixion victims, who generally started out howling in agony and then gradually petered out into moans and silence. Despite the vicious flogging, he still had strength, and it seems that he realised the job was done and he gave up his own life.

I've seen some stills from the film, and it seems that Mel has indeed made the Stations of the Cross, including the traditional fallings (not mentioned in the Gospels). He is also depicted carrying a whole cross. I don't know whether this was ever done - generally the victim got to carry the crossbeam (the upright already being permanently mounted at the place of execution). The victim was attached, the crossbeam hoisted into position and fitted by means of a slot in the crossbeam that fitted into a peg on the top of the upright.