The "re-birth" of MF A1

Why do you say that Anu, do you think it might be a bit too noisy, I have only heard it with moderately inefficient speakers, it is a good amp, very good bass perhaps a bit too strident through the mid for my taste.
 
Stereo Mic said:
I am disputing that the use of the Berning into a loudspeaker like mine has any audible effect on FR. What you are doing is taking basic electronics, accentuating one facet, and applying it to suit your purpose. You always claimed on PFM that the Berning had soft bass with poor timing because of it's output impedence - a claim some of us refuted. You always stuck to your interpretation of electronics so the threads were both monotonous and amusing to those who had actually heard said amplifier. Now you seem to be retracting that claim.

Anyway, I am not interested in an argument. I know how my setup works subjectively and objectively and am reasonably happy. I doubt it would be improved by a visit to Richer Sounds but you are entitled to your opinion.
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Mike, the Berning does not exist in some parallel universe where it can flout the basic rules of electronics. Despite the topology it must obey the same rules wrt speaker interaction as any other amp. FWIW, I have heard it and thought it pretty decent, if rather too sweet, soft and laid back for my tastes. A couple have come up for sale since and suffice it to say that I felt no urge to buy one despite the fact that they are reasonably priced.

The only argument that interests me is centred around the facts and I don't concern myself with subjective musings on internet fora, not these days so if you like it, that's fabulous.
 
Rob just a point of order here. Dont forget you were listening to a complete system, not an individual component. Its impossible to ascribe the sound of a single component when you are listening to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room.

I thought you knew better than that!

I suspect most of the character of what you heard were the 1SCs, not the amp. The berning driving say JBL horns sounds totally different.
 
RobHolt said:
Mike, the Berning does not exist in some parallel universe where it can flout the basic rules of electronics. D
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It doesn't need to Rob and that's where you are wrong IMHO.

Read this if you will

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/

At first glance it appears to back you up. But you will notice the extreme examples used (Martin Logan and SF) to prove the point. Now look at the average Output Z of the Berning as I use it (1.25 ohm - well below the SF used in the illustration) and the fairly stable load of the JBL1500al. Then look at the very stable load of the TD4003 attached to the TH4003 (12.1 ohm to 16.2 ohm) and tell me how you come to the conclusion that the FR will deviate from neutrality any more than by tiny, inaudible amounts.
 
Robbo said:
Rob just a point of order here. Dont forget you were listening to a complete system, not an individual component. Its impossible to ascribe the sound of a single component when you are listening to an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room.

I thought you knew better than that!

I suspect most of the character of what you heard were the 1SCs, not the amp. The berning driving say JBL horns sounds totally different.
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Hi Neil,

Of course but then we mostly listen in unfamiliar circumstances and systems but that doesn't stop people giving opinions. That's partly why in my earlier post I said that I pay no attention to subjective comment on audio fora anymore.
All I would say is that I enjoyed your Berning but wouldn't buy one because it didn't wow me.

But individual sonic preferences are a side issue here and you cannot escape the effects of amp/speaker interaction which will rise proportionately as output impedance rises and/or the speaker load becomes more reactive. Enough evidence exists to put this beyond any doubt.
 
Stereo Mic said:
It doesn't need to Rob and that's where you are wrong IMHO.

Read this if you will

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/

At first glance it appears to back you up. But you will notice the extreme examples used (Martin Logan and SF) to prove the point. Now look at the average Output Z of the Berning as I use it (1.25 ohm - well below the SF used in the illustration) and the fairly stable load of the JBL1500al. Then look at the very stable load of the TD4003 attached to the TH4003 (12.1 ohm to 16.2 ohm) and tell me how you come to the conclusion that the FR will deviate from neutrality any more than by tiny, inaudible (according to all known sciences) amounts.
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It certainly does back me up but your particular use of the amp is hardly typical. My comments and the evidence provided are for the amp driving a typical load such as Neil's Proacs. If you are arguing that the Berning is fine for driving non reactive loads but poor at driving reactive loads, fine we agree. Otherwise nothing changes.

At first glance it appears to back you up. But you will notice the extreme examples used (Martin Logan and SF) to prove the point.
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Hang on, you said SF were using the Berning. If the above proves the point, why would they?
 
I have no problem with that.

All I would reiterate is that you didn't hear the Berning, you heard my complete system and room. To be able to make a considered judgement, you would need to hear it familiar surroundings in you own system against a known reference.

You should hear how warm and woolly my old ES11s sounded in that room with solid state amplification!

Why the hell am i getting involved in these dumb forum discussions. i said to myself that I wouldnt bother again.
 
Robbo said:
I have no problem with that.

All I would reiterate is that you didn't hear the Berning, you heard my complete system and room. To be able to make a considered judgement, you would need to hear it familiar surroundings in you own system against a known reference.

You should hear how warm and woolly my old ES11s sounded in that room with solid state amplification!

Why the hell am i getting involved in these dumb forum discussions. i said to myself that I wouldnt bother again.
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This doesn't stop people slagging stuff like the 840A when they've never heard it in their system and base their opinion on a glance at the box and the fact that it sells through Richer.

But I pretty much agree with your view, including staying out of dumb forum arguments.
 
Rob,

I recall it was you that claimed I was listening to something that modified the FR - something the mighty Richer Sounds amp would not do. I'm simply pointing out that in my application this is not the case.

SF stands for Sonic Frontiers BTW if you read the article as suggested.
 
Stereo Mic said:
Rob,

I recall it was you that claimed I was listening to something that modified the FR.
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And so it does when connected to 99% of speaker systems.
I've made no reference to your particular rig.

Stop wriggling.

Thanks for the link
 
bottleneck said:
then of course their is the SET Berning, the Siegfried.
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Is it also an OTL?

Out of curiousity (and without stealing the thread) is there any protection for the speakers? I know people whose precious speakers were fried with Futterman and Graaf amps.
 
Hi

I believe it has protection circuitry. I believe the Siegried also has the same power supply type as the 270 - which is not OTL, but something altogether more unique, which I don't pretend to understand. It's on the Berning site if you can follow it (I can't). I'm no expert on these amps, and am not good with circuit diagrams.
 
RobHolt said:
And so it does when connected to 99% of speaker systems.
I've made no reference to your particular rig.
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If it did so, then I find it highly unlikely that loudspeaker manufacturers would use it as a reference amp. I suggest you exaggerate to prove a point.

My point was encapsulated in this quote from page 2,

Rob,

amps don't need to be universal - they just need to be suited to the partnering loudspeaker.
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Mike, I can't find impedance plots for your drivers after a quick search of google. :confused: Could you post the impedance of your speaker (inc. horns in place), and any passive network?

The compression drivers I have seen, with horns attached don't have a very linear impedance. Quite spiky in fact.
 
Tenson said:
The compression drivers I have seen, with horns attached don't have a very linear impedance. Quite spiky in fact.
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You've been looking at poorly designed horns Simon - there's a lot of them about where termination is reflected in the impedance plot. Look for something on the TAD 2404 HF section. I won't be posting any of my measurements on the internet.
 
Stereo Mic said:
You've been looking at poorly designed horns Simon - there's a lot of them about where termination is reflected in the impedance plot. Look for something on the TAD 2404 HF section. I won't be posting any of my measurements on the internet.
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Maybe not quite as good as the TAD, but certainly wouldn't be considered poor. Mostly I have looked at the data sheets for the top compression drivers from JBL, Radian, B&C etc.. I have to assume they don't use a poorly designed horn to show that their drivers can do on the data sheet.

Why not show some measurements of your system? I promise not to pick out faults! I'd just be interested.
 
Stereo Mic said:
I won't be posting any of my measurements on the internet.
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After all the cable threads I had you down as a rigorous scientific type willing to prove claims with evidence rather than hearsay.

Now what could be the reason why you don't want to post the impedance plots... hmm. Maybe its because acoustic loading, including a front mounted horn, of any driver will cause some amount of phase shift, impedance peaking and group delay?
 

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