The "re-birth" of MF A1

Examples?

Stereophile produces a graph of THD+N as a percentage against power at various loads. A couple I just sampled show that noise dominates distortion at low outputs.

Paul

 

I'm sure your digital hokery pokery gives you some highly impressive figures Shinobiwan.

 

Does the new Burning convince then Mike?

 

No idea Tony - never heard one. I can't get my head round the high end pricing to be frank. I gather a number of speaker manufacturers have ordered them to use in their demo facilities though - odd given the supposed effects this will have on their FR ;-)

 

Nothing 'supposed' about it Mike.

If they like the effect it produces, fine.

 

There is because you have no objective evidence into real world loads to back up you suppositions Rob. Just as you claim/suppose Bernings have slow ploddy bass from reading specs.

Peak Consult and Sonus Faber use the amps in development. Surely that would mean their speakers would sound peaky when used with proper amplification like Cambridge produce?

 

The Berning 270 does not have slow ploddy bass.

 

The Stereophile tests are performed with a load that simulates a real world load (2 way sealed box - check the site for details), perhaps you missed that.
The effects of output impedance on frequency response are well documented. Check the work of Nelson Pass for starters.

I cannot believe that you dispute any of this. We are talking facts - basic electronics.

If a designer builds speakers using a Berning then yes, his speakers will sound quite different on a different amp with low output impedance. Again this is fact.

Anyone can try this for themselves. Buy a pair of 10w 5 Ohm resistors and stick them in series with your speakers.

Every Sonus I've heard has sent me to sleep.

 

Never said it did, but it's output impedance will effect the speaker being driven and that includes low frequencies.

 

Rob I am not arguing but oddly the Pass labs amp I owned did have quite slow woolly bass.

 

Mike, when you built your speakers did you take your measurements for building the xovers with the Berning amp? Just wondering if the FR alterations of the Berning got designed out in the xover, simply because it was measured using that amp.

Are you running active or passive?

Either way, I'm sure the Berning is the right amp for you at the moment.

P.S. I'm sure someone like Sonus Faber have more than one amp they use to test drive their speakers.

 

surely, the berning story is something new - they used to voice their top speakers using the best krell KSA and FBP models

 

Sonus make their own amp don't they?

 

last time I looked they did a push pull valve amp. Maybe the range has grown.

 

I am disputing that the use of the Berning into a loudspeaker like mine has any audible effect on FR. What you are doing is taking basic electronics, accentuating one facet, and applying it to suit your purpose. You always claimed on PFM that the Berning had soft bass with poor timing because of it's output impedence - a claim some of us refuted. You always stuck to your interpretation of electronics so the threads were both monotonous and amusing to those who had actually heard said amplifier. Now you seem to be retracting that claim.

Anyway, I am not interested in an argument. I know how my setup works subjectively and objectively and am reasonably happy. I doubt it would be improved by a visit to Richer Sounds but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

SM, I think a couple of us just objected to you claiming that you have truly transparent amplification and imply that the CA 840a couldn't meet this criteria.

After you did this, Rob pointed out some basic facts, backed by evidence, about FR variation caused by tube amp output impedance. He showed that these devices are inherently less 'accurate' than their SS equivalents. Now we don't have measured data for Berning so its up in the air. However, based on what I have seen, a generalisation can be formed that it likely isn't as objectively accurate as a well engineered SS amp although it sounds like its probably not as bad as some of the examples Rob showed.

 

Aren't we confusing frequency response (slight) variations with 'transparency' which is a wholly 'notional' concept at best given it's recorded music we're listening to not the real thing anyway?

 

I've been blown away by how absolutely extraordinary the Berning ZH270 can sound.

I've heard it against some really nice amps - Canary Audio 300B push/pull, a £10,000 Macintosh, a 250w digital amp. It slaughtered them, not to put too fine a point on it...slaughtered as in stuffed, slashed and pee'd on the remains.

As an amp, really the Berning has 3 major failings.

1) Its no longer made, apart from a mega expensive new version
2) Even second hand they cost a lot of money
3) I havent got one.

 

plus it can not be used with truly sensitive speakers which is enough for some.

 

then of course their is the SET Berning, the Siegfried.

They also did a 1w Berning, the micro zotl which is really for headphones.